Opinions on Ebo-No-Kata and Dutch JJ in general

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Lennert, Mar 25, 2016.

  1. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    Hello Fellow Jiujutsuka's!

    After reading up a bit on this part of the forum, some posts confused me and lead me to think the Jiu-Jitsu I am tought might differ a bit from what is considered standard JJ here.

    Most JJ tought in the Netherlands is actually so called "JBN Jiu-Jitsu" (Judo Bond Nederland), developed from 1983 onwards by most notably: Wim Boersma, Mario den Edel en Jaap Schuitema.

    Nowadays, Mario den Edel (9th dan) is the last of those innovators that is still active. He is the technical director and advisor of the JJIF, co-developer of the EBo-No-Kata and the EBo-No-Plan, and member of the "Dutch National Grading Commision and education of Jiu-Jitsu". He is also co-author of the book "Jiu-Jitso-Do" which is still considered a standard work, although somewhat dated by now.

    So, in short, I guess it would be considered modern Jiu-Jitsu here on MAP, and maybe frowned upon?

    My own sensei(5th dan) is a military police hand-to-hand combat instructor, as a result of that he has a very practical point of view. He often uses realistic, or at least most likely scenarios to end up in self defense, situations to teach different combinations.

    Brought down to the essence, what we are tought to do when attacked comes down to a flow like the following (of course depending on whether you are grabbed or attempted to be punched/kicked etc.):

    Block / evade / free > atemi or a combination thereof > disturb balance > bring to the ground > finish off(atemi) / break / control or disengage and scan surroundings.

    I am curious about your opinions! Here is a video from the former national champions in EBo-No-Kata and a 1st dan grading as examples of the style:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH7iFxdjuio"]Jiu-jitsu champion Ebo-no-kata, Guus de Laure & Ruud van Roosmalen - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cbr42IMylE"]1e dan examen Randy Cornellissen Thema's 2 t/m 12 Jiu-Jitsu - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2016
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    From what background did Mario den Edel and the other innovators create this style from? And what is the intent of the style? As its a modern creation, is it intended to be self defense orientated?
  3. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    As far as I know, Mario den Edel started out as a judoka, before learning about jiu-jitsu during the seventies. Back then, jiu-jitsu was still very small in the Netherlands, as opposed to judo which was of course allready really popular. That style of JJ was called Nakoni-Jiu-jitsu.

    Needless to say, Jiu-jitsu back then was heavily related to judo and didn't look at all like traditional JJ. More or less judo with punches and kicks. What Mario and the others have attempted to do, is to bring back proper JJ, but adapted to modern times. Less suitable for pre-gunpowder battlefields, more suitable for modern day self-defense.
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So he had never trained in jujitsu, but had trained in Judo?
    Why even call it traditional jiujitsu?

    I lot of it looks like WJJF style 'jiujitsu', is there a training connection there?
  5. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    Sorry for not being clear. He has trained in Jiu-Jitsu since the seventies, and is a 9th dan in Jiu-Jitsu, which makes him the highest graduated jiujitsuka in Europe (only 4th dan Judo). He was european champion in 1980 and '81, he developed the Duo System (current JJIF comp format) in 1984/1985 because he thought the existing competition form was too limited. Then proceeded to develop the Ebo-No-Kata in 1986.

    I would like to discuss the style though! Mario den Edel is just one important figure in dutch JJ, but far from the only one. It would not make sense to make this a discussion about an individual.

    How does it compare to your style?

    P.S. There is no link to WJJF whatsoever.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Looks like typical modern westernised Jujutsu, nothing wrong with that as such just as long as it's not pretending to be something it's not.
  7. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    Is it, then?
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    IMHO the overly formal etiquette and ceremony would suggest it's trying to appear authentically "japanese".
    In other words being more "japanese" than it actually is.
  9. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    Well, you have to take into consideration that while it is not a traditional style, the people who developed it were mostly old-school judoka's, schooled in the 50's and 60's or even earlier in some cases. Wim Boersma was born in 1923, for instance. Formalities and ceremony was more important back then. Thus incorporating it into their own kata must have felt natural for them.

    Also, you are looking at the nationals, and it's only 20 not so complex techniques, so it all comes down to perfection on that level, including the ceremony. At my level we are not even being taught the ceremony part at all.
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm sorry Lennert, but why did they label it "Jiu-jitsu"?

    Jiu-jitsu doesn't exist as a term by itself does it? There is "Ju-jutsu", "Ju-Jitsu", and "Judo". There is also Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, but the Jiu-jitsu specifically refers to Judo when brought to Brazilian in the early 1900-1925.

    Are they saying this is Judo from 1900 to 1925? Yet you say this person is 9th dan in Jiu-Jitsu, training from the 1970s.

    Okay, I just may be ignorant of this stuff. :mad:

    Moving on to the videos. It looks pretty much like many demos that have the end-result already pre-determined. The throws at the end are very well executed with obvious expertise and fluidity. The atemi, however, IMHO are misplaced and appear to be more from karate-jutsu.

    Let me clarify what I mean. There are several ways to approach atemi, one is the power atemi, another is constant pressure (which is combined with getting a reaction out of the opponent). The principle behind all of these is to stun and/or unbalance on contact.

    The atemi in the video are power strikes that are masking as something else. For example in one of the videos there is a downward elbow strike that follows with a takedown leveraging the shoulder and arm. Downward elbows should be done by dropping your full weight into the spine or other vital area of the opponent, this means the arm only moves a few inches with the rest of the downward power coming from the whole body sinking. All the force goes into the point of the elbow into that one or so square inch target area. When you do this power strike, you don't automatically go to a throw. You move to the appropriate technique based on how badly the opponent is affected by it. So there is a pause to allow the power to take effect and so you can assess what is open for follow-up. If instead, the movement is automatically to a next pre-determined technique, that technique will be forced, IME.

    Alternatively, the atemi can be that of constant pressure. This is like how a pinball bounces around a pinball machine. More specifically, this is employing compound attacks. Instead of an downward elbow by itself, it could start with a rising or vertical elbow to the chest, followed by a short downward/forward elbow to the front of the shoulder quickly into a downward back knuckle strike to the temple. Kick to the groin. And then throw to the ground. This works the up/down movements (in other words, atemi coming up, atemi coming down, atemi coming up, and throw coming down). Add in the necessary vertical/circular movements for unbalancing.

    The difference is power hit stuns or knocks out, which provides time to move into the next appropriate technique. It is hard for opponent to counter because they are stunned or knocked out during the transition period between techniques.

    Constant pressure atemi tries to keep constant contact so lighter stuns and unbalancing are constant, giving the opponent very little time to counter during any transitions. This is fluid so transitions can become non-existent as technique is mastered.

    Is this even close to the kind of feedback you were looking for?
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  11. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's just an old fashioned romanisation, and was pretty common well into the 90s
  12. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    @Rebel Wado: Yes! That is the kind of feedback I am looking for. Could you specify which of the videos you are talking about?

    I do get your point however, but I am under the impression that we use our atemi in the way that you describe. For instance, executing a teisho strike to the chin (balance disturbed in the backwards direction from the opponents point of view) followed by an o-soto-gari.
    I mean, you can, to an extent, predict what effect an atemi will have. If you want the opponent to bend at the waist, you can direct your atemi to the groin or stomach. You want him to break balance backwards, you could aim at the throat, chin or nose.
    One atemi not enough? you follow up with a combination. Don't want to use a throw or takedown at all? fine, just keep throwing combinations untill the desired effect is reached.

    Edit: About the term Jiu-Jitsu: That's just the way we have always spelled it in the Netherlands, and since Jiu-Jitsu first came to the Netherlands in 1910, it about fits with what happened in Brazil. The spelling was just never changed.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm talking about the atemi in the second video. The first video atemi is really good, IMHO, for the most part.

    In the second video, some of the technique that FOLLOWS atemi seems rushed. Mainly because there is a lot of pulling punches.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cbr42IMylE"]1e dan examen Randy Cornellissen Thema's 2 t/m 12 Jiu-Jitsu - YouTube[/ame]

    I'll give one example, although overall, it is other people in the video that are more guilty. At around 5:57-5:59 in the video there is an upward knee, then downward elbow, then a windmill (or stirring the pot) throw/takedown. Look at the downward elbow, it is mostly just symbolic. Done with mostly the arm and not with the full body weight behind it. Obviously the uke shouldn't take a full power hit there, so there must be control, but much how a joint lock can be done as a submission instead of a break, an atemi can show power while preventing damage to the uke. Basically, slow it down at the end, show the power and sink into the target in a controlled manner, enough to lightly stun uke, so they can FEEL that it would really work. Basically almost all the downward elbows are "symbolic".

    For the rest of the folks in the video, much of the atemi is "symbolic" done mostly with arm movement instead of full body power and/or motion. Obviously strikes to vital areas must be controlled and uke should respect them, but if you are going for fluidity, there must be contact. If this is particularly hard to do, then substitute targets. Strike to the chest instead of the throat, for example so you can get a good hit in to transition to the next movement and get in the practice striking through the target.

    Just my opinion.
  14. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    I fully agree with you on that. Contact is best to provoke a reaction from uke. We do train that way at my dojo, with exception of the lower belts, especially at delicate targets. Though in grading I believe it is pretty much down to choice, if you make light contact it's fine but a symbolic atemi would be allowed too if it is aimed at delicate areas. If uke doesn't want to get hit in the spine, the grading committee will not hold that against the person being graded (uke is not being graded in this video)
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I think this is there actual background. (sorry for the wall of text!)


    ''Growth in the Netherlands
    In the Netherlands the Toepoel and Boretius who first taught Jiu-Jitsu. The level was debatable, as the combat value. Insofar examine it consisted of a collection of Eastern-looking tricks mixed with some western boxing and wrestling techniques.

    Just before the Second World War were Maurice van Nieuwenhuizen and Johan van der Bruggen promoting the Jiu-Jitsu. Notably Maurice van Nieuwenhuizen has had a great influence through his publications. At the same time, the Nakoni system arranged as curriculum. The word Nakoni is no Japanese word but represents the first letter of the names of the four editors, Jaap Nauwelaerts, Ge and Maurice King and Bob van Nieuwenhuizen.

    The role of Johan van der Bruggen herein may sometimes be higher than was ever imagined. Van der Bruggen learned Jiu-Jitsu in Indonesia by a Japanese named Nakada. Van der Bruggen returned in 1938 from Indonesia and founded in Rotterdam a gym, where he taught this style. With the bombing of Rotterdam lost his school and he began to teach in the school van Nieuwenhuizen. Van der Bruggen has not kept up with the Nakoni Jiu-Jitsu which constituted the curriculum of the first oriental martial arts league in the Netherlands, the Dutch e Ju-Jitsu Federation (NJJB). He continued with his own style, Shin Nakada. Although Johan van der Bruggen no longer alive, his style is continued loyalty by a small group of students. The contents and the character come much correspond to the Nakoni-system.
    The (according to tradition put on a Sunday afternoon together) Mr Nauwelaerts, and King of New Homes has developed curriculum for decades put the tone for the Dutch Jiu-Jitsu. It consisted of six degrees which one could get by doing exams, to achieve the highest degree was the sixth grade. The core of the curriculum consisted of a fixed number of strike actions which each degree more or less came back the same way but which each time other defenses had to be shown.

    As the rate was higher, the defenses were more complex. The degrees were symbolized by a purple cherry blossom (Sakura) with a heart of which the color indicated the degree. Black cherry flower was the highest degree. The cherry blossom was the outward sign of the level of the practitioner to be sewn onto the suit.
    The rise of Judo and other martial arts Nakoni Jiu-Jitsu lost its meaning. It was in fact only taught by some older Judo and Jiu-Jitsu teachers. Late seventies was the JBN, the current successor to the NJJB founded in 1938, decided the Jiu-Jitsu to give a contemporary shape and abolishing the degree system and replace it with a system which, in accordance with the modern Budo forms , consisted of bands of different colors, divided in Kyu and Dan-degrees.
    However, with the replacement of the one-degree system, there was still no. The new system was introduced on 1 January 1983. The exam requirements consisted of a loose, non-binding description and it was therefore not surprising that an examination often consisted of a tepid imitation of the original Nakoni system, often combined with various elements of other vechstporten in which interdependence and guiding principles were missing entirely.
    Therefore, there was a great need for structuring the Jiu-Jitsu. Within JBN a project group was formed with the task of putting together a curriculum which the Jiu-Jitsu would be based within the JBN. This working group was chaired by Jaap Schuitema and comprised Wim Boersma, Mario den Edel and Melle Postema.
    In 1989, an entirely new concept came about. The starting point was the basic technique and the multiple application thereof ,.

    The basic technique nations were divided into six groups of technique
    Freed Ingen (hodoki-Waza)
    Parries (Uke-Waza)
    Blows, punches, kicks (Atemi-Waza)
    Clamps (Kansetsu-Waza)
    Throws (Naga-Waza)
    Chokes (Jimi-Waza).
    Within the different techniques are designed choice as regards methods, which should ultimately control every Jiu-Jitsuka. With regard to the movement vision, the various principles of motion were formulated.
    In the Netherlands the development of Nakoni Jiu-Jitsu to modern Jiu-Jitsu gradually occurred. The current system also contains several elements of the old system. The key element is to test the skill of self-defense as part of Dan exams by going out of attack situations.

    One consequence of the gradual transition was the status of "Nakoni" Jiu-Jitsu teachers that without examination, without demonstrable skills in the new system retained their teaching qualification. Meanwhile solved this problem.

    Teachers have played an important role in the establishment and spread of the new Jiu-Jitsu curriculum was Wim Boersma, Mario den Edel and Jaap Schuitema, the latter was the first to the fifth, then the new Jiu-Jitsu system, also JBN called Jiu-Jitsu.''
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Ah, yes reaction from uke is part of it, but not what I was focusing on in the videos. There is a big difference between atemi in the first video (former national champions in EBo-No-Kata) and the second video (a 1st dan grading). It isn't the contact level, it is the body movement I was focusing. With contact level I was just pointing out more detail as more or less background information on where I'm coming from.

    In the second video, the atemi (striking) is more or less independent from the throws and grappling. In the first video, the atemi is integrated with the throws and grappling, except when the atemi is the finishing blow (e.g. stomp kick or punch to a downed opponent).

    Independent atemi is like boxing or kick boxing in the sense that you are trying to hurt, knockout, stun the opponent. This is power atemi. Power atemi can be combinations of lighter hits with power hits intermixed, but the point is that any grappling is secondary to the striking. When doing such atemi, the power of the strikes should be seen in the full body, particularly in the footwork. This is the type of atemi that I see in that second video of the dan grading, but was looking for the power behind the striking. So I am expecting to see the power of the strikes, but the strikes are treated in many cases just to get a reaction or as a symbolic hit. IMHO.

    Integrated atemi is implied in grappling and throws. This is compound atemi. What I mean is that pretty much the same body movement would happen whether or not the atemi was there. For example, you start a wrist lock and palm strike into the face, then complete the wrist lock take down. The same motion is done with the body whether or not you actually atemi. Another example, off balance the opponent and strike them as they fall, then complete the take down/throw. This is the type of atemi I see mostly in the first video (former national champions in EBo-No-Kata).

    Is this a kind of difference in atemi that is of any interest to you?
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  17. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    Yes, it is. Although I must admit I have not been focussing on the division between the two as sharply as you have put it.

    Of course, in the first video, they are performing a kata. In this kata there are 20 pre-determined attacks with each having a pre-determined defense. This kata acts a a red line for the style to demonstrate, in a compact package, what the style is roughly about and as a handhold for education of the style. Thus, we can conclude that the developers of this kata have a liking for compound atemi as a means of breaking balance and supporting following techniques, since it is strongly represented within the kata.

    In the second video, you see an individual 1st dan candidate trying to follow directions from the grading committee as best he knows how. Some of it he might have practised thoroughly beforehand, at other times he is improvising on the spot. I think this explains largely why the difference is so strong between the two videos, apart from the obvious difference in skill level.

    I would agree that the atemi in the second video that are independently performed (as you say, power atemi) should have been performed with better body movement. I also think that this is still the most important matter to improve in dutch jiu-jitsu, atemi are still somewhat overlooked in the shadow of the grappling.

    Which is also largely the reason why I cross train in karate-jitsu.
  18. Jumonkan

    Jumonkan Valued Member

    It appears the base of the ideas at play in this Dutch version of Jujutsu are two kata. 1 would be Goshinjutsu and 2 Kime No kata. This Ebo No Kata (what does Ebo mean?) Seems alright if odd at time with the attacks and defenses.

    You're mistaken with your statement of your teacher or the Ebo kata developer being the highest ranked Jujutsu person in Europe, Certa Sensei, in I believe Italy, is a Menkyo Kaiden.

    So how does it stack up against other Jujutsu systems. It seems ok but you can tell Judo is largely where this Jujutsu system was developed from or was a big influence on it.

    I agree the Atemi is kind of strange as well but thats been covered.
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    There are others in Europe with impressive koryu backgrounds.

    Not sure who Certa Sensei is but there are certainly others with similar rank.
  20. Jumonkan

    Jumonkan Valued Member

    He is the Daito ryu rep. I may have his name wrong.

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