Online Ninja Training

It makes me sad that that's the exception, although I know it is.

Well I've never gotten good enough at a weapon-centric grappling style to say. I can take knives and sticks away from people without getting tagged pretty consistently though, and that's purely with no-weapons grappling experience. The most dangerous knifer I've dealt with was a strong college wrestler with no other experience. So hard to control, you can't really isolate much without getting cut badly.

Based on that, I'd call it a different intent and emphasis on the same structure of movement and same principles. Then again I'd say that applies to anything a solid fighter from any style does.

 

Possible, but in all my years of punching heavy bags at the boxing club (bare knuckle, no mitts, gloves or wraps), I never hurt myself yet in the way of breaking bones in my hand.

In a real situation, the possiblity is higher of actually injury due to striking a living target, that I can speak from expirience. But the end result wether I injured my hand, is that the persons jaw was broken, as the barrage of strikes collided with his face, neck and torso. If I had pushed my small finger knuckles in, the end result is the same.
Injured finger (possible) or broken jaw, unconcious (waiting to be kicked in the head).
The person recieving did'nt moan about technique

It is a bigger picture to look at that if you are going to engage in a fight or have to, there is a possibilty, that you are going to get injured, wether it be self-defence or assault.

Trying to minimise this, is why I train.

 

The person recieving did'nt moan about technique(sic)

I may not agree with some of your posts, but I think that quote hit's the nail on the head for me. If you're (unlucky) to be in a fight or under threat then it's going to be ugly, fast, hard and you're going to get hurt. Hopefully the other chap gets more hurt. There will be no points for style.

 

I have him on video proving otherwise. I might consider editing out the training and just post the stuff with him doing such in it.

That could my kuden for the day, how about it?

 

That's great. Really.

What about the point system for the other 99.9% of the time that you are not actually engaged in a fist fight with another human being?

The Takamatsuden arts, like many koryu, have absolutely nothing to do with what most people seem to think constitutes modern self-defense or "fighting".

Is blind luck or hoping that the other chap gets "more hurt" good reasons for not properly learning the fundamentals of these arts?

Perhaps for Sbucks and George Rodgers they are. Good thing they've broken away from the Bujinkan and are no longer teaching aspects of ninjutsu....

[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLR8XcvXypU"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLR8XcvXypU[/ame]

....oh.....right....oops....


- Mark Spada

 

But Mark... his gi... it has... many colours!

This is what George Sings at night

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1zJzr-kWsI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1zJzr-kWsI[/ame]

 

Aw Mark, that's not fair, using a Richard Head as an example:Angel:

 

Nick and Norm are right, and no mistake.

THIS is the coat that George should be wearing:

[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w9aNqF-3vs"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w9aNqF-3vs[/ame]


This or I just wanted an excuse to put up my all-time favorite Python clip.


- Mark Spada

 

is this the Jack you're referring to?

http://www.resgroupintl.com/events/2010/rgi_vji_03-13-2010.htm

 

That's the one.

 

I agree with your points. You should not rely on luck. You have to spend the time to understand how the system you are learning and how it should put you in a position where you don't have to say, "Phew! that was close. Yea, I've got a smack in the face and a few bust ribs but hey, you should see the other guy! LOL!"

Proper training with proper study of the art is essential. Knowing WHEN to engage is just as important as HOW to engage. Otherwise you're just a thug with tricks.

Yet survival is survival. Battlefield, dark alley, club, vengence attack. Better training will give you a better chance of survival.

Frankly, I don't care for george's magic jacket, and I'm not trying to defend him. SBucks post made a good point and I wanted to acknowlege it.

 

Appropriate training will.

Spending 10 years defending against attacks launched from one to two mat lengths away is not going to do you much good when someone gets in your face.

If you're going to study the older systems then you need to know when, where and how they can meet a self defence situation today.

Just because something was appropriate and workable "back in the day" doesn't automatically mean the same applies now.

 

Yes.

I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but Rory Miller's book [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training/dp/1594391181"]Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence[/ame] provides a lot of good food for thought regarding "appropriate training" and how one might go about that.

 

Playing devils advocate:

Is it better/more approriate to learn (say) BBT to a high level under a recognised and respected good teacher to gain mastership of the form, kamae, kata etc, and then hope that this will translate into an effective "self defense" method when you need it?

Or is it better/more approriate to do more realistic training (close combat, scenario testing, escape and evasion) with less emphisis on "absolute form" and concentrating on effectiveness?

Can the two schools mix?

My personal belief is to try to find a balance that works for you. Unfortunately I don't have the time to really get to the "Adam Mitchell" level of greatness, nor can afford to get to Japan to train at source, but I like the technical stuff. My trade off is that I'm training, enjoying myself, making myself maybe a little less vunerable.

Dale said
I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but Rory Miller's book Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence
provides a lot of good food for thought regarding "appropriate training" and how one might go about that.
I can't recommend this book enough.

 

If SD is your focus you need both, imo. This nonsense we see from time to time that you don’t need form and can just skip to effectiveness is mind boggling, regardless of your system.

Form is, or should be, dictated by function if your form sucks then you aren’t going to be delivering your system effectively.

Want to learn to hit hard? Then learn to do so with correct alignment and power generation etc.

Want to hit someone hard then do the above and add a live opponent whilst integrating scenario based training into what you’re doing.

Work on striking from a fence, using verbal triggers as go signals etc it’s not one or another but a fully integrated approach.

It’s not just training methodology that, imo, needs to be appropriate but the material you are studying, you need to able to sift through what would be high percentage material today.

I think the above shows I think they must mix but in the right way. No point in adapting how you strike for a specific scenario if you can’t do the basics right in the first place.

 

These aren't different things, even though people think they are. In my opinion and my and my teacher's dojo we do neither what you think of when you think of the first point or the second. It's something entirely else, in between and yet orthogonal.

Most internet discussions seem to want to peg people with 'A' or 'B', but it's almost always something else. These extremes are never really true.

 

If you sincerely pressure test regularly, under good guidance these questions disappear. You know what meshes and what doesn't because you've done it hundreds of times.
This "move like Hatsumi" BS disappears because without the timing, structure, and confidence that drives that movement, it fails (obviously).
The mindless adherence to technique disappears because, again, without the traits and intent that drive the movement, the techniques are dead and fit into the situation about like a round peg fits into a rock.

If you do not, it won't matter what your training looks like because you won't know how to intuitively navigate violence in real-time.

 

I don't think most people who train know how to navigate violence in real-time, also the fact that the very small minority that can, don't really wish to either.
Sometimes we don't have a choice.

The one lesson you can never get taught in a lesson. Traditional or SD, is what really happens on the day when the ugly truth comes out.
With Geoff Thompsons 'Fight or Flight'. if it ain't in you it never will be.

 

That is simply not true. Adrenaline response can be trained for. In fact Geoff makes quite a big deal out of that as do lots of other well known self protection instructors like Peter Consterdine and Den Martin.

 

I have to be honest and admit that Rory is a friend of mine and we were training partners for a silat session last summer.

Even so, I really recommend everyone in the Bujinkan get and read his book. It is required reading for my students.

Rory admits that until he met Dale he had a poor opinion of ninjutsu students. I have gotten the same response from a lot of people. One guy told me that I spoiled him when dealing with Bujinkan folks since most of the guys he meets just do not seem to know what they are talking about. Folks like Rory have no problem with the way we punch, etc. It is just that too few seem to know the basics and even fewer know about things like "The Woof", "Monkey Dance" and things like that.

The stuff Dean was talking about like scenario based training and such are really important. So is knowing about what goes on before, during and after a fight. My newsletter recently had a series of articles on the legal problems you will face after you get into a fight. How many people deal with even just that?

This is the thing that gets me. It is true that the ancient samurai probably never had to deal with someone woofing at them. So adding some scenario training like Bill Kipp does is probably a good idea if you are talking about self defense. But how many "modernized" forms of "ninjutsu" that claim to have updated the art for the modern age do anything like that? So far, I have not seen even one. Toshindo seems to have people yell "stop it!" That is about it as far as I can see.

Again, the basic techniques and such are fine as far as folks like Rory is concerned if you can do it right. It is just that you need to know about things like the monkey dance if you are talking about modern self defense.