I mean by the who how do you yourself teach it not how do you teach it. This is from an instructors prospective
Both. Off the top of my head, the basic is from a grab. Several distances involved with a punch, there is above the arm and below(ura and omote). Don't turn your back on the opponent when going for his arm and use your footwork and rotation of the hip to catch his arm instead of muscling it(unless you are a beginner). There should be old threads with videos of this technique from both a good and bad perspective(in technical application that is).
Cool thank you. I've been doing this from a punch for years now. It lends to a slightly different placement of the hands, rotation from the shoulder and focus on the scapula. Makes for an excellent take down throw.
It's a great throw, the skill is in minimizing the movement of the hands/arms and getting to the point where you can do the technique with just the legs and footwork. Also, making sure you are continually moving off to the side and being able to catch it at any point in the attack.
We tend to introduce it as a defence against a grab and punch. This is because it's easy to control both hands in this situation (something that most youtube demos fail to do) In the ryuha it tends to be used against punches, which to me make sense as vs a grab is probably the most difficult situation to use it in We do practise vs a grab only. In this situation it's quite difficult to get sufficient control to prevent the usual counters so working on this helps to highllight how to perform it correctly vs punches etc I feel that if you work on the obvious counters then you can understand how to do it correctly. As PR says it's more of a throw than a take down in my mind The main counters are along the lines of: 1 Preventing your entry (eg punching you with the rear hand) 2 Taking your rear side/shoulder/ face etc to prevent your rotation and potentially taking your back 3 Pulling back/down with the front leg and elbow 4 Over rotating to "flow" out of it etc I've found that by training these and by considering weapons we've been able to develop a solid foundation Hope this helps/makes sense
A couple of points I'll add here from my years of inexperience. 1/ Be careful how you interlock your hands, don't interlock your fingers like some people do. It should be palm across palm right hand facing fingers up if you are doing the technique on his right side for the basic oni kudaki i.e over the arm. Theres two forms as RPsays 2/ The lock is created by the elbow being further back than ukes arm so he cannot straighten it out so you have to get to a position like RP said. 3/For Uke keep your arm tight in to your shoulder when practicing as this prevents your arm getting damage even when practicing. 4/ One thing Doron Navon said way back in 1986 or so when I was attending a seminar at Peter Kings dojo is there are two areas where you can concentrate the lock/throw on. If uke tenses at his wrist to stop you doing the technique pull in on his elbow across your chest. If Uke tries to stop you by tensing his elbow go for the wrist section to place the lock/throw on. He mentioned this when we ere doing Takagi Yoshin Ryu so may be specific to that school. 5/ Remember theres also a type of Oni Kudaki where you grab ukes elbow at the sleeve to pull in. This may not be Oni Kudaki but I have heard it called such, and indeed written as such, and is used in Kukishinden Ryu although that school also has a kata called Oni Kudaki IIRC. 6/ As Oni Kudaki is sometimes a alternative form used in Kihon Happo (Kukishinden Ryu) it should be able to be done from not only a grab, but also from kumi uchi (Shiho dori) from a knife stab, and from a punch and even a rear cross choke. 7/Think about how your going to finish the technique. Are you going to just dump him to the ground or control him when you get to the ground. 8/ A common mistake I see is that people do not align their arm with the elbow. For maximum control make sure the arm that comes underneath is flush with the elbow. However it is possible to move away from the elbow to cause more pain and break. Finally Oni Kudaki has deep meaning. It is more than a technique. The teaching behind Oni Kudaki comes from the Amatsu Tatara and is called "Ja aku Wo Datsu" The feeling according to Hatsumi should be not one of a fighter but of righteousness. The breaking of the demons horn means the improvement of ones self. Hope that's of help Dave. As I say just things I've picked up. May be wrong, but hopefully correct.
Works quite well from an overhand strike ( beer bottle/ club / knife etc). Good to sort of 'recieve' the strike, sort of going with it a tad till you get their arm at that optimal angle ( as your side on) then going under- up and In front of your 'blocking' hand as your rotating your hips square to them ( but adjacent) then a bit of 'torquing' going towards that big kukan ball you can clearly see behind them. That's how I remember one way of doing it.
I’m gonna really regret this, but what the heck….. I record most of my training sessions. I find it a great way to look at my movement from the outside and doing so allows me to notice loads of errors in my movement for me to work on. I put some of them up behind passwords etc as a recap for members of our club/dojo. These are recorded by putting a video camera in the corner of the room, so there’s no rehearsal, no production process, no editing etc. They are simply clips from the drills that we were training on that day (which is always work in progress). They are not promotional videos, they are not randori or pressure testing, they will not prove any particular point to readers of this forum etc. They may perhaps illustrate a particular point or two that we are working on if you can see past the mistakes that I’m making. We worked on oni kudaki recently so here’s a few clips to liven up things up on MAP. I’m not a name in the art nor do I ever think I will be. So there’s no agenda other than to share a couple of things that I’ve picked up on the way This is focused on a set up (ie the throw is light and there’s no real finish) https://vimeo.com/84123243 This is focused on a way to finish https://vimeo.com/84123244 This focused more on the lock & throwing aspects (the uke is very relaxed and flexible allowing a bit more emphasis on the locking without any risk of injury) https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=490626691532&set=vb.511351532&type=3&theater When I see these clips they are far from perfect and I notice many things that I need to work on. I would genuinely appreciate constructive feedback I’ll reinstate the privacy settings in a couple of days as I’ve no intention of these being public in any way and I suspect that my ego will only stand it for a couple of days
Much better than some videos we see out there, it was nice you pointed out the incorrect way to do it first, many people out there think that's the right way.:bang: Again, juxtaposing the good and bad in your demo was nicely done.
Thanks loads PR for the thoughts and totally agree with your 1st point (bad habit of mine I think.......) Be helpful to understand what you mean here: One of the things I've been focusing on recently in "controlling finishes" (ie tying them up rather than "damage and take distance") is to keep them on their side and closing down their ability to move their hips much. This, hopefully, reduces the risk of strikes and them pulling you into a ground fighting situation When I look at the 2nd video I think that I'm leaving a bit too much space as I move to the "mount" and there's a risk that I lose the lock for a moment (& create a risk of being unbalanced), but that's a bit different from what you're seeing I think? Thanks loads - really appreciated
Off topic I know, and just for fun let's throw these in - my interpretation of kihon being used against modern striking methods Very light training, uke is 20+ year veteren from kyokushinkai karate so is very used to taking much more forceful blows than these Ichimonji no kata https://vimeo.com/70561900 Jumonji no kata (I started getting a bit experimental around 0.30 & let him get a bit close for comfort at one point here) https://vimeo.com/70559924 Again this is just my own, light training and nothing to prove, but maybe spark some ideas of how we might apply basics in these situations I'll take em down in a couple of days
If you look at the image that appears when you go to the video, you can see how close your head is to his and how his leg could potentially kick you(depending on how he fell). So if you are bent over less you will have his arm in a worse position, I'm not sure if it was protecting the uke or out of habit. Then as you step over to sit, you are only stepping, not thinking of the step as a strike that ends with you on top controlling(that is what I meant). Even if you don't kick/knee with any force, the intention to do so as you sit down should be there. He can still strike you with his left hand while he's down too(though the pain makes it difficult) so work on controlling his arm and position so he can't strike or kick you as easily as you transition from throw to takedown and then control. The other thing is how you catch his arm. It is already extended and then moved from that position, whereas with a real puncher who retracted, you wouldn't be able to do that probably. So working on not moving his arm off the line of attack as obviously and with your arms but more with your footwork and the turning of your hips as you step.
The stepping point makes perfect sense - thanks! I think that we (well I) develop bad habits from protecting uke and going easy, so there're kinda one and the same I think Great insight on the arm also - thanks
Again, not bad but I would think about making sure not to paw at his strikes in the ichimonji video. The counterstrikes should be snappy but the angle they hit his arm should do more than sting and annoy him but off-balance him. Also, you rely totally on striking to the outside of his arm but with that kind of winding jab(more of a lead hook almost) he is throwing, the inside of his left arm is ripe for your strike to his elbow pressure points with your left hand. Waiting longer until you strike would help in this manner, letting him almost hit you and then letting him collide with your counterstrikes would do more damage and shock. On the ken kudaki, make sure that it doesn't just go downwards but forwards too in case he was coming with another blow, he would walk right into your next strike and keep your chin down more. That and don't drop the lead hand down after each strike unless there is a reason. On the jumonji video, I doubt anybody would walk into your extended thumb like he does at first without trying to move that obstacle. Also less pushing with the boshiken and more striking(PM me if you want more details on that part) and less leaning over. Using his arm as a blinder also would make it a bit better. If you time it right and come in at the right angle, he won't see it coming and therefore could impale himself.
Some examples of the technique in case people are wondering what the heck we're talking about: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeixcjWh2hA"]Shinden Fudo Ryu - Oni Kudaki - YouTube[/ame] Though the guy wouldn't go to bearhug you, he would hit you in the face since you couldn't see it if you do this wrong. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh5BeDZ0uH8"]Bujinkan Gyaku Waza Oni Kudaki - YouTube[/ame] Bearish on elbow locks. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TofXbqnbAM"]60-ONI KUDAKI ARM LEVERAGE ATTACK - YouTube[/ame] it's mountain time!
I know that I need a lot more practice on ONI kudaki because after the lock up there is the take down. When they are on the ground, I find I have no control of there arm. They can just pull it out of the "cradle" when their back hits the ground. I find my teacher does not have this problem and it is related to some mistake in my foot work. Is it meant to break the shoulder standing and take down, or just a uncomfortable take down? Oddly im finding less trouble with the ura version.
Yup, I think considerable damage would have been done by the time they hit the deck, but that obviously doesent excuse poor foot work or posture ( at any time) Kudos to dunc btw was strapping on a pair of kukan balls and putting up some vids!
