ONE UNIFIED ITF TAEKWON-DO

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Benny the Jet, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    I'm sure there would be some changes that the ITF would want. I personally would be willing to make some changes so the styles are a blend, however given that 10 kwans merged to make KKW and that this is effectively one more kwan, I wouldn't expect the resulting outcome to be a 50:50 blend.

    Do I want the ITF to "go away"? That's a tricky question. I would love it if the ITFs suddenly all desolved and all members joined the Kukkiwon and WTF through the MNAs and switched to our style. I think that would be a good thing and would mean the ITF "going away". I don't think of them as an infestation though that should be exterminated, so it depends on how you're reading/writing "go away".
     
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Isn't ITF TKD an earlier version of TKD though?
    Why should they disove into the newcomers?
     
  3. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    1) It depends on your point of view who is earlier. The Oh Do Kwan (General Choi's style before he founded the ITF) wasn't the first kwan founded, the Chungdokwan (1944), Songmookwan (1944), Jidokwan (1946) all have the Ohdokwan (1953) beaten in those terms (and by two other kwans). Then it comes down to are you saying the ITF was a new organisation with no history or a natural extension of General Choi's Ohdokwan. If it's an extension then surely the KTA and then the KKW are an extension of the other kwans.

    2) Because the "newcomers" are much bigger/more popular.

    It's also interesting to note that General Choi founded the Ohdokwan and then effectively extended it to become the ITF, the remaining Ohdokwan members in South Korea are part of Kukkiwon and participated in the Kwan unification process in 1976.
     
  4. Razgriz

    Razgriz Valued Member


    On the bigger popular.. did we actually get a rough idea of number break down yet?
    I don't believe there is much in it at all.
    I know the biggest organisations in Europe are the ITF ones.
    America, going to guess WTF?
     
  5. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    No, I got an answer back from the Kukkiwon of "it's on the Kukkiwon website", but I couldn't find it (maybe it's on the Korean version).

    I'm going to Korea in a week, I'll try to get some numbers of members from KTA and WTF when I go there (it's for an academic-type forum, so it will surely be on topic for someone to give me that type of information).

    However, that discussion was comparing the size of KTA vs ITF* not WTF vs ITF. I think you're the first person I've heard think the two are close in size.

    Anyway, I'm trying to find out on my side of the aisle, if someone ITF can try to get in touch with their groups to find out on their side...
     
  6. Razgriz

    Razgriz Valued Member

    Fair one. I will write to the 3 ITF org's and see if I can get a rough member size.

    Hope you enjoy Korea.
    Raz
     
  7. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    Having trained in both ITF and WTF/KKW TKD I can honestly say the idea of somehow "blending" them is a bad one. You like KKW Taekwon-Do, you can keep it.

    I'm not sure what changes the ITF would want since, apparently, they'd have to fundamentally change their style. Unless your suggestion about the outcome not being 50:50 meant that the KKW would have less technical input :) But even then, it would still not be something I (or I think most ITF'ers would welcome).

    It's not a tricky question, at all. But your answer is an offensive one. Seriously, it's hard for me to even respond to such a statement because it's so befuddling.

    But I will ask, why would you think it's a good thing for the ITF to go away and for me to join an organization that doesn't do my style of martial arts and then have to conform to their technical standard?

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  8. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    Yes, it is. There have been technical updates over time, of course, but Gen. Choi was the first one to set out to develop a specifically Korean martial art as opposed to teaching Japanese karate, the first to develop new forms, and the first to develop and use a new name for his style.

    They shouldn't. It would never work, anyway. The only ITF that would ever consider "joining" the KKW/WTF is ITF-NK, anyway. And if it ever did that there would be a loss of a pretty big chunk of its members.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  9. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    This highlights the difference in attitude - the Kukkiwon is about inclusion/unification and the ITF is about having their own system and keeping absolute control.

    Fair enough.

    My apologies, I sincerely didn't mean it to be offensive.

    OK, let me rephrase. What did you mean by "That's just saying you wish the ITF would go away"?

    Did you mean one of:

    1) I wished the ITF would go away because I think those members would be better off served by having access to a wider pool of technical talent (assuming you agree that a)there are more WTF participants and that b)some of those WTF participants are talented)?

    2) I wished the ITF would go away to remove the general confusion it causes new students to have to understand that the word Tae*kwon*do (with asterisks representing anything) can mean official Kukkiwon style, official ITF style, ITF-offshoot style, independant style?

    3) I wished the ITF would go away because they are just an irritant and us big burly WTFers want to stomp on the little guy?

    I can agree with 1, I can agree with 2, I disagree with 3. I didn't mean to offend with my reply, I just wanted to clarify in what terms you meant "go away" before I agreed/disagreed with your statement that I wanted them to go away.

    The answers given above.

    I think that if some accommodation was made to merge the two styles (as I said I don't think this would be an equal merge and I don't think it would be weighted on the ITF side) then the new merged style would be "our style" not mine or yours :)
     
  10. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    Well, no, it doesn't. It highlights my reaction to your post, which was incredibly rude in its wording (and message). It has nothing to do with the difference between the ITF and the WTF/KKW especially since you yourself have been touting the KKW "standardization." If you want to talk about having one's own system you should not forget that.

    Out of curiosity, how else do you think it would come across, wishing the ITF "dissolve" and all its members join another organization which wouldn't let them practice their own martial art?

    #1 simply doesn't apply. It's like saying more people play the piano than the organ so there's a bigger talent pool and everyone should stpo playing the organ and join the local piano players group. It's not the same thing, so why should I wantto join your group? You like, kudos to you. I gave it a whirl for a couple years and found it quite lacking.

    See, I agree with #2 in regards to the KKW/WTF. All you guys do is cause confusion when it comes to my style.

    And I've met more than one KKW'ers who ascribes to #3.

    But they simply don't make sense from my view.

    How long have you studied ITF Taekwon-Do? Under what ITF Master Instructor? How many times did you train with en. Choi, GM Choi, GM Rhee, GM Hwang, GM Sereff, or anyone else? I mean, on what technical knowledge are you basing this assumption?

    From my view, a technical merger is unworkable in any real sense.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  11. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    I was seeing it more as we'd all be practicing a new unified martial art, rather than our old styles. We'd make some changes, you would, we'd all be called the same things, etc..

    LOL

    I'll shortcut this - none/never. My original instructor came from ITF Taekwon-do but had already joined the Kukkiwon and was pretty changed over when I started with him.

    I'm not basing it on technical knowledge - just the fact that the two arts are somewhat similar and we could meet on our differences. You obviously disagree.

    I consider Kukki-Taekwondo my brothers and sisters. I think of ITF Taekwon-doin as my cousins. Sure we're from different branches of the family, but we could live together as family if we brought our slight differences closer together (but to keep the analogy there's a lot more brothers and sisters in my branch of the family so it's much easier if your branch makes the most of the changes).

    You obviously feel differently and that's your call.

    Fair enough.
     
  12. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    But why would people want to do that? What's my motivation? Why make up a tertium quid when people are perfectly happy with what they've got already?

    Well, yes, I do disagree because I've trained in both. They are somewhat similar, like Goju is somewhat similar to Shotokan. But I seriously doubt anyone could take all the exponents of those arts and get them to agree in any serious manner on how to combine them. I see about as much hope for the ITF and WTF.

    Yes, I do, but I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint. IMNSHO, there are more than "slight" difference. Off the top of my head there are differences in: chambers for blocks, chambers for kicks, the execution of kicks including something as basic as the side kick, different pattern sets, differences in how to punch (how to punch, for the love of Pete!), differences in where target areas are specified for basic exercises, different stances, different methods of stepping, different methods of power generation, different methods of sparring (not just free sparring but also differences in pre-arranged sparring), differences in terminology, and et cetera.

    As for the family analogy, it's great. I have often thought of it as something along similar lines. But you don't bring your family closer together by marrying your cousin. You know what I'm saying ;)

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Goju is much more different to Shotokan than ITF and WTF are from each other.
    The biggest differences are the patterns IMHO.
    ITF patterns seem better to me because they are closer in nature to the original Karate kata that inspired TKD. WTF patterns are too far removed to be of much use. Walking stance being so upright for example precludes a lot of applications for the low block movement (because many require the drop of weight that a longer walking stance is for).
     
  14. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    Can't say I agree about the patterns being the biggest difference. The most noticable difference, maybe. But that's only because when they are executed side by side the host of "smaller" differences which I mentioned above are almost all on display. And the "smaller" differences are, by and large, the more important differences because they are examples of the very real differences in each art's underlying philosophies about how to generate power, how to move the body, how each technique is executed, etc.

    These differences, developed over several decades of seperation between ITF and WTF, make each art quite different. Maybe they're more similar than Shotokan and Goju but the fact remains they're different enough that a technical merger is something that would result in both arts losing out. (And this is especially true if we go by Andy's suggestion that the ITF give up more than 50%.)

    Peaceful co-existence is great. Gutting a fantastic style and also KKW TKD and then taking the left overs and making a new style? No thanks! (See what I did there? ;) I kid!)

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    No actually IT IS the 1st KMA of SD to be called TK-D! So in essence it was the original TKD, not an earlier version. To me an earlier version means one that has not evolved. Gen. Choi's TKD continued to develop & evolve up to his death in 2002. All the ITFs & ITF like orgs have also continued to develop & evolve.
    WTF TKD or Kukki TKD was originally called TAE SOO DO and they trace their roots to the original or 1st 5 Kwans, which were all teaching some form of basic karate with some minor influence of CMAs & Judo. They simply developed away from the same karate roots that Gen. Choi, the ODK & ITF share, but took a different developmental path & emphasis.
     
  16. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes I do think it does depend on one's POV. But facts have little if anything to do with POVs or said opinions about those personal viewpoints.
    Fact:
    Song Moo Kwan opened March 1, 1944
    Chung Do Kwan opened Fall of 1944
    Both closed shortly thereafter!
    The 5 original kwans opened between 1945-47
    Gen. Choi started teaching Korean karate, as the kwans were & Col. Nam started teaching in the military in 1947
    Hence this was why a Korean Amateur Sports association ruled in 1959 that the Oh Do Kwan was to be considered on par with the 5 original kwans, this paved the way for Gen. Choi forming the Korean TKD Assoc in Sept. 59 & what I call the 6 early kwans
    All 5 kwans suffered great disruption, as did all of Korea during the Korean Civil War 1950-3. Most operations shut down except the military. The kwans reopened/reorganized after the war ended in 1953, with 3 of the 5 original kwans founders gone, with 2 kwans even being renamed
    Opinion: An argument can be made that the military TKD was/is the oldest continuing operating SD instruction in Korea

    No I would say that the ITF was formed 7 years before the WTF was. I would say that Gen. Choi worked from 1946 with his evolution & vision for his KMA of SD forward. He was a constant, the others changed. We see 3 of the 5 kwan founders gone, with 1 never participating in the TKD movementS. It was the 2nd generation leaders of the 5 kwans & the annex kwans that would go on to eventually evolve away from karate & develop their version of a Korean martial sport, which they called Taesoodo. This took place starting in 1961, while the military focused their evolution starting in 1954.

    It should be noted that the military dictatorship did not allow ITF TKD style to remain in SK. Those in Korea faced pressure to leave the ITF & join the WTF. Their choice of leaving SK was even affected as some were not allowed to leave the country! many had no other option, but to participate in the Kukki TKD sport movement.
     
  17. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Sir I would love learning more about this academic type forum!
    Please share what you feel comfortable!

    I have heard figures by the WTF or SK TKD figures that say 50-70 million, while I have heard the ITF say 60 million.
    I think both sides claim all TKD students no matter what kind of TKD they do. There are no real hard numbers on membership. The KKW dwarfs the ITF in BBs certs issued. The WTF has around 2x more Member Nations than any ITF group has. There are probably more independents than either ITF or WTF. There was a study done years back that may have been printed in TKD Times that got membership numbers from the USTF (ITF in USA) & USTU (WTF in USA). The WTF was 20,000+ & ITF was 10,000+. This was based upon a national USTU magazine subscription numbers & USTF membership numbers, that may have been for lifetime members (so no way of knowing how many were current).
    IMHO the ITF has more members than the KTA, as the ITF has 3 groups, with the ITF-NK having their NGB, the KTC having millions of members in NK alone. many people simply forget about original TKD in NK. It is huge & it is all ITF, from schools to the military.
     
  18. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I think the problem is few realize what ITF TKD is. There is simply no way many ITFers would be comfortable with any merge as it wouldn't be feasible. How we move is so radically & so basically different, that any change of even 50%-50% would not work. It would be saying whatever you learned fundamentally flawed!
    ITFers I think would be okay with a merging of sports sparring rules, IF it gave them access to the Olympics.
     
  19. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Thank you & good luck!
    Please advise of the results of your inquiries.
     
  20. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    That is correct! In a way, it is essentially factual to say that Gen. Choi's TKD was the original TKD or the 1st KMA of SD to be called TKD, that was developing away from their karate roots.

    I think it would depend on the shape or form that the joining or merger would take on. Many in the ITF-NK believe in working towards Gen. Choi's dream of 1 TKD & 1 Korea!
    NK has been offered to join the WTF as a Member Nation. They are one of the few in the world to not have joined the WTF. They simply will not, as that is not their TKD, nor is it the original TKD that they are now vanguards of. If they joined the WTF, it would seriously weaken their ability to merge with the ITF-NK with the WTF.
    All ITFers around the globe should be rooting for the ITF-NK to be successful
     

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