I just finished reading this thread from start-to-finish for the fourth time. I still don't get it. And I think that's the answer
maybe the answer to the question is:- After searching every avenue & theory & guess the student must come back to master & admit openley 'I do not know the answer' (and not be ashamed or embarresed not to know the answer, but to be aware that he doesn't know the answer is the 1st step to enlightenment) Yakka
trying again: maybe it's not supposed to make sense? Perhaps our effort to find an answer to the question is what we're supposed to be analysing in this problem? am I on the right lines?
Yes & no. Seriously guys...YOU NEED A TEACHER. This not something you goof around guessing at. Without a teacher, it's essentially mental masturbation.
The Koan refers to the Absolute (The Unstruck Sound, or the Causeless Effect, so to speak; another name for it is "The Essence of Mind" or "Mind's True Nature"). It is not meant to be understood literally.
Aye. Are there two hands? Or just one hand? Who is seeing the hands? Who is it who is asking whether he sees hands or not? If ultimately there is only one hand anyway the sound must be now. :hat:
The point of a koan IS to mentally run around in circles. It is unimportant what the exact wording of a koan is, anything can be a koan, words aren't even necessary! A gesture or a story would work just as effectively. Now who is masturbating? This is a useless answer that provides no benefit to anyone, but does strokes your own ego! If you think someone is on the wrong track, stop pretending to be wise and provide some useful information for them; tell them what you think is wrong about it. This is untrue. The mental masturbation you criticize is merely a step one goes through when considering the meaning of a koan! One of the teachings of Ch'an is that everyday life is the Buddha mind. Therefore, anything and everything may be used as an expedient means, INCLUDING mental masturbation and making uninformed and nonsensical comments about topics about which one has no real knowledge or understanding! Another useless comment that does nothing other than stroke your own ego! No more so than your own comments! Which are okay as well....but they are just as wrong, or right, as anyone else's here! Discussions, even seemingly useless or nonsensical ones, are all expedient means. To consider them otherwise is to be caught in the trap of conditional phenomena which contributes to our overall ignorance.
the concept of one hand clapping is an old one. two hands clapping is bound to make a sound. it is the colliding of two forces containing matter. the sound is merely a release of energy. now as for one hand clapping, well the original is something like "if a tree falls in forest and there is no-one around to hear it, does it make a sound", one hand clapping can be attributed to the will of the gods, if both hands clap and produce a reaction then would not one hand passing in the motion of clapping be seen as stirring of the wind? so in essence if one could move their hand fast enough in the motion of clapping then there would be sound as it creates friction through the air around, causing vibration which would translate to sound, only if it was fast enough though.
enlightenment is still only a whimsical term, if one was enlightened that would mean they have more knowledge than others. but to achieve this one must have these discussions, it does not matter if there is valid input in discussing a topic, enlightenment is the knowledge to know what to say and who to say it to. i find it frustrating that these so called enlightened ones do not share their insight with others, only upon approaching one and asking for an answer does one receive one, then also the truth could be said that the answer for one person deems appropriate may not in fact relate to the others problem. this is now a matter of interpretation. what one person says means something to them, however what they have said means something else entirely to someone else. so i dont think there is such a thing as enlightenment, i believe that there is understanding of different levels, this however does not make one smarter or dumber than anyone else, depending on the topic at hand one may know everything, while in another lack considerable knowledge. enlightenment is meant to be able to consider all topics with equal knowledge on these things, but how can enlightened ones have knowledge of something they have never experienced? for it is through experiences we learn, not be simply running the scenario over in our mind, there are to many factors that can contribute to something not exactly as you had imagined, therefore completely dismissing the strategy or answer put in place. i think the truly enlightened ones are musicians and comedians. having to deal with making stuff up on the run in stand up, yeah ok they may have some written material, but a truly great comedian will be able to change is tact while dealing with a crowd who is not appreciating is first plan of attack, and musicians well, hip hop is a perfect example, freestyling, coming up with verses that make sense and rhyme on the fly, also bands do this while playing a riff or song which has no lyrics to it, while listening to it words seem to form from nowhere.
:hat: :bow1: Saying that I know the answer or that I believe I know the answer would be contradicting myself. Oops, did I just give it away? To explain it properly in words is impossible-possible-impossible-possible-impossible-possible-impossible-possible-impossible-possible. Like you, I have spent time. Even discussing it right now is a paradox in itself, so I will go now.
This post has inspired hundreds to make them selves look like idiots by practicing the "One hand clap" in public, lol
