Once an atheist, always doomed?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Socrastein, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    “Truly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ‘He has an unclean spirit’."

    Mark 3:28-29

    "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

    Matthew 12:30-32

    If denial of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, why do so many Christians try so hard, or at all, to convert atheists? We are the unforgivable, we cannot be saved. Jesus himself says so, very clearly, at least twice in the Bible.

    I deny Jesus, I deny God, and I certainly deny the Holy Spirit. So why hasn't every Christian who knows this simply stopped trying with me, and every other atheist? And why are there so many Christians who used to be atheists that still think that they are going to heaven?
  2. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    Peter denied Christ 3 times before the **** crowed...

    Seriously though Soccy, if they were to show that you'd made a mistake in the theology and your sins could still be forgiven, would you take them up on the offer? :)
    I'll have to get talking to Aikimac on this topic again sometime.
    It's been a while since we had our last talk on "judgement" theory.
  3. Zamfoo

    Zamfoo Valued Member

    I've heard a few theories on this. The one I find most acceptable is that the Holy Spirit is the more personal area of relation of God to people, and therefore, to deny that means you will never progress spiritually. Like you can diss people because people won't get rid of your sins, but if you ignore the only way you can elevate yourself spiritually, you're basically screwed.

    But I'm not much of a christian, and i'm sure that I'm gnostic and evil.
  4. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Because you're not dead yet. Judgement comes at death.

    Query, why do you use 400-year-old English for your Bible quotes? That seems rather strange.

    Probably Jesus or one of the Apostles said they're going to heaven. Once they believe in Jesus, they do right to believe his words and the Apostles words on this matter.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2006
  5. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Maybe I just didn't understand you Aiki, but I don't think you really addressed my question. Jesus doesn't say that if you deny the holy spirit on the day that you're judged you can't be forgiven, he says that if you ever blaspheme the holy spirit, you have eternal sin that can never be forgiven.

    This of course contradicts the notion that one can never be forgiven for denying the holy spirit, which is exactly why I created this thread, to explore this contradiction.
  6. Aikikai Novice

    Aikikai Novice New Member

    Ah, this is a good question. The ol' "unforgivable sin."

    Ok, firstly, to BLASPHEME the Holy Spirit is pretty much to believe in God and to call him evil. In a simplified sense. So it's difficult for an athiest to blaspheme.

    Secondly, "salvation" and "forgiveness" in the Bible are very context sensitive words.

    You can be saved from the eternal penalty of sin - that is, permamant separation from God.

    You can be saved from the power of sin in your life - to have control of your sin nature.

    You can be saved - via forgiveness - from the punnishment for sin in this life and the next.

    Doesn't mean you can't be saved. Just means you can't weasle out of payin' for it.
  7. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    So are you saying Aikikai it doesn't matter if you're never forgiven for that sin, you can still be saved? What's the big deal with forgiveness then? It sounds completely unnecessary. Why do Christians seem to make such a big deal out of asking that Jesus forgive your sins if it doesn't even factor into being saved?

    You say to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to believe in God and call him evil. Where do you get that? Jesus says that if you "speak against the Holy Spirit" you're unforgivable. He doesn't say that he who knows God and speaks against Him commits an eternal sin.
  8. Dyno

    Dyno Valued Member

    Jesus also said...

    "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household'". (Matthew 10:34-36 NAB)

    Safe to say it's a tad hypocritical and, IN MY EYES, nonsense. No offence to anyone.
  9. Aikikai Novice

    Aikikai Novice New Member

    The verses you reference are when Jesus is talking to his disciples regarding the pharisies. Jesus casts an evil spirit out of someone, and the religious leaders of the day said "it is by the prince of deamons that he casts out deamons!"

    So Jesus was talking about different things that happen when you directly insult God, like when you declare His acts to come from an evil source.

    I can't insult "Dave" in a personal way unless I believe that "Dave" exists.

    "Salvation" is the mechanism that allows us to come to God despite our sin.
    "Forgiveness" is the mechanism that rids our being of that sin so that it doesn't have to be burned away at judgement. Not all saved people are equal. Not even close.
  10. Aikikai Novice

    Aikikai Novice New Member

    Well, dyno, it sure is easy to take a bit of something out of context and make it look however you want.

    "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon earth. I have come to bring not peace but the (or "a") sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household'"

    Biblically, the truth of God is, "a double edged sword." And sword analogies are used frequently in the Bible.

    Jesus was just saying that it was their obligation to spread the Truth, and that they WOULD meet violent opposition.
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I'm not convinced that's what Jesus said.
  12. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Matthew 12:31-32
    Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Mark 3:29
    But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

    Luke 12:10
    But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    no doubt those quotes have been taken 'out of context'
  14. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    I think the part in bold is pretty straight forward
  15. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    but still, it will be 'out of context'
  16. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    ok? Is there anything in the bible or in the situation that was takeing place at the time, that goes against or, that changes what he said?
  17. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    The problem is that you are trying to apply this scripture without addressing, first, the obvious question: What is "blaphemy of the Holy Spirit"?

    The scripture clearly says that it is an unforgiveable sin. Soc has tried to apply it to himself, by saying that his unbelief in God is this sin. The scripture you have quoted does not back this claim up. As a previous poster pointed out, the ones accused of this sin were not atheists, but people who claimed to believe in God, and who appeared very religious.

    There is great debate on exactly what constitutes this sin, even within Christian theological circles. Related concepts include the 'sin unto death' (1 John 5:16) and reprobation (Romans 1:21-32; Jude 4-13; Hebrews 10:26-31). Note, though, that in all these cases, the verses apply to those who claim to know God, have been in the community of believers, and then reject Christ.

    See for instance:

    "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6; see also verses 7-8)

    These verses says that such people cannot repent. However, other scriptures also show that no one can truly repent, on their own, but only because God gives them the grace to see that they need repentance, and the faith to want it and accept it. So, for any believers in God who wonder if they've already passed the line so that they cannot repent and return to God: don't worry - the fact that you desire repentance shows that God hasn't given up on you, and that you therefore have not committed this sin. For the unbelievers: don't worry - you cannot commit this sin, until you have already known God's goodness by personal experience, and then choose to reject it.
  18. Aikikai Novice

    Aikikai Novice New Member

    "Neither in this world, nor the world to come" OR
    "Neither in this AGE, or the AGE to come."

    The world to come - the The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Not "heaven" or "hell."

    For something to apply to you in the world to come (the age to come, the Kingdom of Heaven) you have to BE in the world to come.

    Also, the term "eternal damnation" is obviously an old translation. It's sometimes difficult to translate Greek to English, so if there was something ambiguous it was often translated with the attitude of the day. "Fire and Brimstone" as it was back then.

    A better translation is "he is guilty of a lasting sin."

    Did you know the Bible says nothing about actually dying and "going to heaven?" Or to hell?
  19. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    I see. This isn't a factor for those that dont believe. What about those who truly did believe at one point, but now don't? Or is this strictly for people who believe but more or less despise the whole thing, basically more about contempt than belief.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  20. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    I tend to believe that last case - despising the whole thing and willfully rejecting it after fully knowing what you were doing.

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