Well not old school but twenty five years old. What do you train differently than in the following video? And if you train the same methods as in the video, what comments do you have on it? Warning the following video contain explicit pictures of knife wounds. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8BIgUuyBT0"]Surviving Edged Weapons 8 - YouTube[/ame]
Sweep and disengage is probably the most valuable tactic in my opinion if you can pull it off. Distance is your best friend against a bladed weapon as it gives you time to either draw your own weapon (preferably a firearm) or to beat feet if you are unarmed and have no reason to stay. Overall I'd say things haven't changed that much over the years to be honest.
Jeez, I havent seen this film for years!!! I think it’s a clip from a video called ‘surviving edge weapons’ by a company called Calibre Press The video was made in the late 1980s. Dan Inasanto is in it along with another Filipino Kali master who’s name I cant remember. This video first made reference to the 21ft rule. Calibre Press was very very revolutionary at that time and I believe looking back quiet a head of its time. They developed evidenced based Police officer survival training. (very revolutionary)They were instrumental in getting Police officers to realize that a knife/edge weapon is lethal and that deadly force should be used. And also at a certain distance one cannot draw and fire ones firearm quick enough to stop your attacker at but at that distance to rely on empty hand techniques, then dis engage and then draw your firearm. Cailbre Press ran seminars and produced 3 very excellent books on Police Officer Safety training The books are American policing based if you see what I mean. They also sold a number of really good books around the whole subject of Officer safety. I have got their audio cassette recording called the ‘winning mind’ by Dave Grossi(see his auto, very highly respected). In my view he was the first person to address the whole issue of developing a ‘winning mind’ positive mindset sort of principals as important if not more important than physical techniques . I have gone a bit off topic so please accept my apols. Trends come and go but the stuff they developed then for close quarters and built around one's reactions along with the more important fact that at a certain distance your attacker will hit you first before one can draw a firearm was revolutionary.
Of what is presented there, Sweep and discharge would be the best tactic, but preferably with more outside evasion. In the UK we simply cannot be armed legally to tackle any type of attack, armed or otherwise. Therefore, to some extent it is best to try out some knife defense strategies and tactics, but its not easy to introduce this meaningfully into training, as most MA folk I know get either to competitive, bravado/embrazened or not realistic. Outside evasion is by far the best strategy, and leads into the sweep and discharge strategy relatively easily(????) - or escape. When you sweep the knife hand away from you, its best to take his balance away as well, if you can do so e.g. low kick to ankle/back of knee. Once he is unbalanced, you can smack his neck/face area - but this is choosing closing with great judgement i.e. it may be just too damm risky. This is difficult enough. Knife attacks on the inside are much, much more difficult to explore IMHO, as you pretty much have to evade, enter his space and destroy him - all-in-one - instantly - at his throat/wind-pipe straight-away - before his knife attack gains any momentum whatsover - accepting the subsequent afterwards collateral damage of the stray blade-hand. I have tried training this and it is almost impossible. Worse still, double blade attack; one repeat thrust (sewing machine koyo used to call it), the other slashing. That combination cannot be entered on the inside at all. Outside evasion can work in your favour. However if you are boxed in e.g. in a bar, stair etc; backstep and or back-angled backstep evasion - if you are skilled enough - may gain you a second or so of time, but thats about it. Even worse still, more than 1 opponent with double blade i.e. even outside evasion becomes pretty much impossible. A problem I find in training this type of stuff, is getting progressive build up of attacks. Almost everyone I meet has trouble with single straight thrust at medium pace.
Yes, the clip is from "Surviving Edged Weapons" as you state. Training methods for unarmed against knife are almost all supplemental training, meaning that you don't see the training method when looking at forms and techniques. Pretty much, I've been introduced to two different ways to start knife counter training for beginners. The first was to have attacker with the training knife extend his arm about 80% of the way and just walk forward towards the defender. The defender can try out what ever technique they want, but as soon as contact is made, the attacker can now resist and move his arm. Depending on the level of the defender and attacker, it can progress after first contact to just a little resistance to all out fighting. It is sometimes surprising to students that they get a free shot at grabbing the knife hand, and even after doing so, they cannot control the knife and they get cut when the attacker starts to fight back. A second method for beginners was to have the attacker with one foot touching a wall. The attacker with the knife can do anything but always has to keep one foot touching the wall. Defender is in no actual danger because all they have to do is stay away and the attacker cannot move to them. However, the defender must move into the knife cutting range in order to engage the attacker. What can be surprising to students is that it is very tough to close on a knife mentally, you want to stay away and not get cut. It takes fighting spirit to explode through someone with a knife. Safety first. Eye protection. Control. Speed and power appropriate to the level of the students, etc. Now both training methods above had no technique in mind. Students are free to do whatever technique that comes to them. Instead, there is emphasis on principles. The first is do not get hit. Then control... then neutralize the threat. If you get hit, then start over and go back to the do not get hit; don't trade blows with a knife. Feedback from the attacker is important, both in discussions after the training but also during the training. For example, the attacker should be allowed to slap the defender with his free hand during the exercise. The frequency and how hard depends on what the defender can take. So if the defender grabs the attacker's arm that is holding the knife. The attacker can attempt to slap the defender in the side of the head with his other hand. This feedback tells the defender that the attacker's other weapons are not being engaged/neutralized as they should be, even though the weapon arm is controlled. Principles are important. Without any particular technique, students are told for starters to "never allow the knife to point at anything you don't want cut", "keep the back of your forearms towards the cutting surface", and "always protect the high line, low line, and center line", "don't overreact to the first attack" (sort of a play on minimum movement, maximum mobility). I think after this, some discussion of technique can make sense to the students. Most knife counter techniques are going to be similar to either "scissors" type defenses (where one hand/forearm guards high and the other low, and the knife arm is trapped between the two) or compounded attack and defense (where one hand checks/parries, the other hand strikes/cuts, for example). Scissor type defenses can work well against a single committed attack because they can surprise the attacker who suddenly finds his weapon arm trapped, allowing the defender the opportunity to gain the initiative. Compounded attack and defense can work well against repeated attacks, but requires good timing and mobility to be effective. It also requires good coordination between your two arms and front foot not only for movement, but for attacking while defending. The idea is that your attack either causes the attacker to block or they get hit. Depending on if the attacker gets hit or if they successfully block, the defender's technique comes. More advanced knife drills involve restricting the defender's mobility, such as attacker grabs on to defender then sewing machine thrusts at them. Or multiple attacker with one holding defender while other has knife to throat, etc. These are more scenario based types of training. They are eye openers for many. IMHO.
Or blast thru the attacker with a good old front kick causing them to drop the knife...and the contents of their stomach.
This not a good tactic, and unfortunately partly what I was referring to as not being realistic. Blades, even wooden/blunt rounded-off ones, cannot be treated like punches. Competitive kick-boxing for this type of stuff just wont yield anything practically usable. Your upper legs have major arteries running down them, which can easily be severed by even a glancing cut from a dropping sharp. I think this is explained in this vid. If inside entry is your only option - in a lift, crowded bar, train seat etc; entering directly e.g. head butt to solar plexus/throat are - complete destruction of nervous system and simultaneous separation of opponent's arms - including blade wielding hands - but this is mega dangerous - as stray knife cuts can easily get you on the sides. Try practising any kind of basic drills at set patterns, starting from slow, medium to fast. Then try with set pattern combo attacks e.g. knife slash and thrust punch; starting from slow, medium to fast - and see how difficult this all is. There aint many unarmed self-defence vids in youtube land that I rate, but the opening salvo in this is not bad i.e the attacks are not play attacks, and defender has to time and blend instantly with upper body evasion, but I would like to see a step or 2 of footwork evasion if possible - but as its hapening damm fast, there just may not be time. I dont advocate getting cocky and trying this out for real, but trying it out in training. Real life will be at least 100 times more difficult. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfCyfk"]Silat Suffian Bela Diri - Knife Defence and Knife Fighting - YouTube[/ame]
It isn't a good tactic as Embra pointed out, but not because it couldn't work, but because it could leave vital areas vulnerable for getting cut. Remember one principle I mentioned before: "never allow the knife to point at anything you don't want cut." In the act of blasting through the attacker with a good old front kick, the "hole" is that it is not specific to where the knife is pointing at the time of the kick. When training with skilled knife fighters, IMHO, they are generally very open to all knife counters, simply stating that "it could work." So your blasting through the attacker with a front kick "could work". This is how training often goes to verify these types of things. Knife fighter comes at you and you kick them successfully. So it does work. However, second time they know it might be coming so it is harder for you to get it to work successfully without getting cut. If you get them two times with it... by the third time, it is near impossible to catch them with the same thing as they would have made adjustments. So it goes, maybe first time 95% chance to work (you have the element of surprise), second time maybe 40% chance it works (you still can maybe fool them), third time maybe less than 5% chance it works (they ain't falling for that trick again). Note that it doesn't have to be a skilled knife fighter, just someone experienced in fighting to know a few things. If the guy with the knife has ever experienced the knife counter you are using, there is less chance that it will work on them because they have previous experience with it. So look at skilled knife fighting and knife counters from the view point of best odds for you. Not something that only works once really well if the enemy has never encountered it before, but if the enemy knows the trick, it doesn't work well or at all. Instead, work towards those things that are practical for you and that work well even if the enemy knows the trick. This is what principles are for, since principles are what make things work. So if you want a front kick to work really well against the knife, you got to make sure the knife wielder is not in a position to use the knife effectively when you kick them. One aspect is that of timing, other aspects are distance and angle of attacks, etc. This video explains somewhat of the timing of attacking when the opponent is open: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0exZ_V1k9k"]Morihiro Saito Sensei Initiating Shomen Uchi - YouTube[/ame]
Bad initial search (when you first take the person into custody). Bad idea to take off the handcuffs while searching. He's a lucky man.
I agree, there are few "knife defence" vids on youtube which are anything other than cringeworthy, this is one of the much better ones. I suppose I am not in the best place from which to comment as I have not uploaded a "knife defence" video, but it would probably 95% talking about situational awareness (don't be there), avoidance techniques (run away if possible), de-escalation (give them your wallet), distraction and evasion (put something between you - car, barstool, whatever) and only as a last resort close the distance/physical intervention... The opening few seconds looks a lot like the "tapi tapi" drill from FMA. I agree, personally I'd like to see more angular evasion/footwork, counter striking from the defender (high line/eyes if his hands are fast enough, low line kicks/stomps if not or as well). Having trained with Maul (the attacker at the start) a few times (seminars, not regular classes) I can say, from my limited experience, that his system is simple yet effective, and his training methods involve progressive pressure, as well as multiple attackers etc. A good martial artist promoting a system with effective training methods for the physical intervention aspects of SD. Good work.
Attack and defense are one. The initial reaction that comes instinctively to stun or unbalance the enemy while protecting yourself is very important. A long time, now retired, police officer told me in the first time he was attacked by a knife, he used age uke (rising block) to stop the knife attack and he proceeded to punch out the attacker. He says there are better ways to counter a knife, but more importantly this still worked because it came without thought and stopped the knife, giving him the ability to take out the knife wielder. This was because he had spent years in karate repeating the age uke block correctly thousands of times, so it came when he needed it. There are some common elements in what works.
lol at 3:15 You want to apply the principle of Gun. As in pull out your gun and blast the assailant until he looks like swiss cheese.
Here is another old school approach: "stun or unbalance the enemy on contact" There was mention of the importance of evasion. Pretty much the very basic part of evasion is to buy yourself time to assess the situation while you are constantly getting the enemy to have to reacquire their target. To get your enemy to have to reacquire the target, you only need to move about half the width of your body. This is more than a few inches but less than a few feet. Another principle: "maximum mobility, minimum movement." Anyway, what I'm getting at is that real old school was not specific to techniques but was in the passing on of principles. The techniques were important but had to be passed on though hands on teaching from one generation to the next. Techniques could change as times changed or as a particular person found the need to change. Principles could be passed on through written means and pictures, but could remain UNCHANGED. Here is one old school interpretation of the "stun or unbalance the enemy on contact": [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6zFG2eDkRg"]Katsuyuki Kondo, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, part 3 - YouTube[/ame] It is demonstrated in a demonstration in this video at the beginning and later against a sword: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M23L0D9XrB0"]Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu - Katsuyuki Kondo - YouTube[/ame] The evasion to the side is very little due to entering on such a sharp triangle. However, timing is very important for this to work... to enter on yin. I believe when more evasion is needed (e.g. you are too late to enter on yin), then there could be more side to side evasion in Daito-ryu Aikijutsu using a "z-shaped" step. Question, could entering such as taught above work in the following situation? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou-CQyPTEqo"]knife attack cctv real footage from Richard Grannon - YouTube[/ame] Notice that the guard who is stabbed (but survives and is released that day from the hospital) is mostly defensive, trying to keep the knife away from him. It worked for a bit but eventually he was stabbed, but was able to knock the knife away and others came to help. I personally believe that entering is the better choice compared to evasion, if done so on the timing of yin and if stun or unbalance on contact. A lot of "IF"s; however, I don't think either evasion or entering are mutually exclusive, they can work together. Pure evasion only buys you time, that might work if others are around to help, but eventually one will get cut.
A lot to say on this when time allows (not now). So very brief summary:- All vids I looked at again - every single one has potential mistakes in them (later.) The jeweller shop is the most interesting one as it is sudden and chaotic i.e. real. Guard sitting does not have space for outside evasion (maybe backwards of his stool but thats useless) and he is boxed in on his right. He does have his left side open - but that is the blade thrust line side. Guard just does not have time to do much else. Sitting down seems like a bad idea to guard from - though Aikido and Daito-ryu train from seiza (kneeling.) Guard defends and eventually gets into trouble. Have to ask what was the motivation for the attack? I can't see it as robbery - killing a guard just to get to the jewellery counter - doesn't quite ring true for me. Maybe he was just psychopathic on some strong drugs/medication or whatever. 'If' the guard had the presence of mind to detect imminent danger, small inside evasion movement (z step as mentioned by Rebel) combined with nuclear missile entry destruction e.g. to throat; then maybe just he could have turned the cards round. Direct entry 'if's:- as above and as demonstrated in the Daito Ryu and Saito Sensei vids - by taking elbow nerve points (but you need to be damm good to do this under pressure of a sudden knife point) - Im not. You can add in z step evasion - to take you off the attack line - but it has to be instant, deceptive, faster than him and operating in very, very small space. Even then you are still in danger from his other side. Evasion 'if's:- largely only works on the outside and depends on you deceiving the opponent into a false sense of bio-mechanical security - where he over-extends and has less room for manouvre (someone trained/experienced in knife skirmishes may not fall for this so easily.) 'If' the entry takes you close to his elbow and or neck, you are <<reasonably>> safe in closing to divert him (his blade bearing arm must be unbalanced away from you - this is only possible from the outside - push elbow/arm away from you, preferably with counyter twist unbalance on neck - two counter directional unbalances make i very difficult to recover from) - and exit quickly - it has to instantaneous. If not in position of advantage after initial evasion, keep escaping. Evasion only works if you can be deceptive at the same time i.e. don't telegraph your intentions until its over. When the space is very tight, bio-mechanical efficiency becomes important for evasion i.e. be evasive where there is zero or little space - especially on the inside. On the inside, evasion must be combined with explosive entry - attack and defend as 1 - particularly vs sharp. Outside evasion would be my preference, if at all possible.
Another aspect to take into account is that the attacker's thrusts wont always be straight lined i.e. they can have swerve and/or corkscrew twist, slashes (horizontal or diagonals) or whip slices. If the the blade attack is curved in any way, the 'old school' direct entry will not work. Also inside evasion would have to be adjusted - making it even more difficult. We are still talking single blade. When double blade e.g. curving slash and linear thrust combined, direct entry is not possible at all, inside evasion is not possible at all i.e. the only realistic strategy is outside evasion. - To some extent we can class 'old school' 'sweep and discharge' as an add-on to outside evasion. Why are blades nasty? - because you may not see them until very close range and suddenly - giving you no time to do much other than react instantly. If your potential assailant is hell bent on making you a kebab, offering your wallett wont be of much use, just reaction - whatever that may be.
I had the guys working on knife stuff today in class. We started off as a jab and then cross punches from the attacker, then moved on to a grab with one hand and stab with the other hand from the attacker. I won't get into specifics about the particular footwork and techniques I was teaching today, but the factors that made a difference were distance, timing, alignment, and opportunity. Students were free to move in any direction to avoid getting hit, but I was stressing specific footwork fundamentals to help them. Knife counters could have been grouped into three categories. The first is that of entering (inside or outside of the knife). The entering was timing based. We didn't work much on that today, I showed a bit how when I move, the attacker generally moves in response to me moving. In that initial movement by the attacker after I move, there sometimes is a moment of hesitation in the attacker when they are open. Particularly if they are thinking about attacking and raising the weapon up in order to strike down with it. The "sweep and discharge" worked well with entering. Although, in cases, it was good to sweep with one hand, pin the weapon or sweep it to the side, while attacking with the other hand. After doing your damage, get out of there. When entering on the inside, we worked passing the blade point to the ground while moving to the outside then sweep and discharge. The second method, was to form a shield with the forearms (one covers high, the other low) and scissor the attacker's weapon arm, then grabbing high on the wrist, apply a joint lock. If on the inside, we worked on passing the blade and moving to the outside if possible, then into the joint lock. If the lock fails as attacker retracts, we pinned the weapon and then used "sweep and discharge" to get away. The third method we didn't get into today specifically on the knife arm, but was used a lot on the grabbing or jabbing arm. This method is to slightly pull on the attacker's extended arm in the direction it is already moving to stretch the attacker out. This can be used on a knife arm if the attacker keeps his arm out while thrusting and missing you. It is also the fundamental of how to pass the blade by keeping the arm of the attacker straightened with knife pointing to the ground or up in to the sky. However, on the arm that is not holding the knife, the one that was jabbing or grabbing, we slightly moved away, to stretch out the attacker's arm and then we used a wrist strike or elbow strike to stun that arm and possibly neutralize any grab. We then followed with shielding with our forearms and scissoring the knife arm as before. It could be possible to enter after stunning the arm too. In all cases we added in atemi (striking) when we could, either low kicks or strikes.
