Mmm, way I see it only the Most High has mystical powers. Sometimes He gives people the ability to do things for His own purposes. It's a mistake (shirk) to believe that you are providing the juice.
I agree with you that all things including such abilities ultimately come from the creator. But he dose not give it to all men, Certainly not all Empu and keris workers. Others may believe that all empu and keris workers do but I dont.
True enough. What means do you have of determining who has or doesn't have the Real Mojo(tm)? Are you a tzaddik? A wali? A sorceror? A shaman? Why should we accept your judgement on who has or hasn't been specially graced? Put it another way. If I take a selection of modern and ancient blades that have been made in exactly the same fashion and can not be distinguished by visual or chemical tests (no fair using a gamma ray counter) how many people, Indonesian or European, could tell which ones have the baraka? And does it really matter? Most of us don't live lives that require us to deal with spirits or devils except in the most prosaic sense. If we need to kill people we can just shoot them. If we need to find water we can get it with civil engineering. Do a kris' putative magical powers really have an impact? If we can't detect spiritual qualities in the metal what difference does it make to us? What's wrong with judging them as important cultural artifacts embodying craft and art?
Let me ask you a question, do you seriously believe that all keris workers have such abilities?? I have to say I think only a simple person would believe that. I don’t need to be a mystic to tell you that, just like I don’t need to be a weapons expert to tell you if you get shot it will hurt, its common sense my friend. In modern times do we need such things? No I would say no. Is it important? Hmm I guess that depends. Can I accept a keris as just being a beautiful hand crafted blade? Sure.
The Mpu and the Pande Peace to all, Narrue dear, I think you do not yet understand what the term Mpu means. A person is called Mpu because of his spiritual powers in whatever art he works in. When Mpu Djeno is called an Mpu, or Pa Pauzan is called an Mpu it is because the kraton and or the society recognizes that these people have something beyond the art and craft they are working in. If the kratons in Solo order keris from Pak Pauzan it means they acknowledge that he has more than just the technical skills of keris making. I disagree that the fasting and praying is something just anyone can do. Try fasting and praying properly and you wil find that it is not easy-peasy. If you do fast and pray properly you will get spiritual powers. Powers for what, that is up to the All-Mighty. Modern Mpu can still make proper keris but they do not make them for just anyone. In the cyber-silat world I have seen contemporary modern keris and modern tombak being offered for sale as 'spirit keris' in a Californian silat school website. Now you would not want to say on this forum that Californian Pendekar X is a liar would you? In kerisology the term modern blades usually refers to blades produced after palihan nagari - the splitting of the state, refering to the Giyanti treaty in the 18th century which divided Jawa into Solo and Yogya. The Solo Mpus after this treaty began to use the tungkakan in their keris, and because the Bali keris image used (without permission of the owner) in this thread has a tungkakan, I believe it could not be older than the 18th century. Were the modern Mpu's less powerfull? No, they were more powerfull, as their pusaka helped kick out the Dutch and the British and Stalin from Jawa. Always remember that a keris, like a jurus, is actually a prayer in the form of a blade (or movement in the case of jurus). God never lies and always gives to those who ask. In kerisology, a keris maker is called a pande. If he or she has more than technical skills and people feel they are spiritually potent, they are called Mpu. Personally I would give the title Mpu to several Aeng Tong Tong pandes even if only because they have diligently preserved the ancient art. The best of Aeng Tong Tong can compare to the works of Supa, the sepuh or the anom! Ask Mans on the ethnographic blade forum to show you the works of Supa and modern Aeng Tong Tong. By the way Aeng means 'something new' and tong-tong is the sound of the hammer on the anvil. This village has consistently produced keris since at least 1400 till now. Any Indonesian with cultural knowledge would rejoice at the fact that modern pande can still make proper keris. If an Indonesian thinks that modern Mpu cannot make potent keris he should talk to me and I will show him the light. Narrue, you need more Indonesian contacts, from your opinions I deduct that you must be talking to New Order Indonesians who eat to much Mc Donalds! Enough here Narrue, I want to go to the vikingsword forum to see if you posted anything there. To all keris enthusiasts I suggest you go to the vikingsword forum and join the mature forumites there. Warm salaams to all, KC
Very few I would guess but I could be wrong, some people may feel that "this blade feels different then the others" but not know why. Actually it would be very interesting if such a survey was ever conducted because we may be very surprised at the results. I think a Geiger counter will only tell you that the blade has meteorite Iron in it, due to the small quantity of radioactive elements present in a meteorite. I’ve never done it before but I bet if you put a Geiger counter near a common nickel keris there won’t be much of a high count but if you put it near a meteorite keris it will go wild. This dose not mean that the blade has special powers though. Put the counter near a lump of meteorite and I bet you get the same result.
Narrue, have you ever put a geiger counter near a meteorite? What makes you think it would be radio-active? Your knowledge of science dear Narrue is beginning to rival your knowledge of the keris. If it were that easy to detect meteoric pamor in keris it would have been done a long time ago. There is NO sure way to determine if there is meteorite in a keris unless you commissioned the keris yourself or you have very good provenance. This has been debated in great depth on the EEWF and if you would bother to search the old forum there you would find some very interesting scientific research that has been done. There are some very subtle characteristic that might point to the possibility of meteorite in a keris, but anyone who claims they can prove it is a fraud. Very few keris, relatively speaking, were actually made with meteorite BTW. There is, in fact, no evidence of a source of iron-nickel meteorite in Jawa before the Prambanan fall of the late 18thC. The remnants of that fall are enshrined in a Javanese kraton to this day and the material was only used on very special keris. BTW, your quest for an all meteorite keris which you expressed on the EEWF only shows you lack of understanding of the mystical aspects of the blade. The idea, as i believe Kiai explained before, is that meteoric pamor from the above is united with iron from the below to form a magickal union of heaven and earth. Just to use meteoric ore would not create this sacred balance. Get it. Probably not, huh? :bang:
The bit about the gamma ray counter was to exclude that test for modern iron. Ever since the 1950s there have been enough radionuclides floating around the atmosphere to contaminate modern metals in ways that sensitive instruments can detect. That's why pre-WWII steel is worth interesting money in the right circles. It can be used to build housings for high-end radiation counters that won't contaminate the results.
That's very interesting Tellner. Yes, we do live in a corrupted world. Of course a meteorite could contain radioactive material as well, but it is not a given just because it is space metal. Regardless, a geiger counter still won't help you determine meteorite keris from earth pamored ones.
Of course. But you can't tell the difference between the really magically juiced up ones. I can't. 999/1000ths of the best Indonesian keris afficionados probably can't, much less divine it about people who are dead. So the whole discussion is kind of bootless. It would be best to keep it to the things we can demonstrate. I make Balur Silat from an old recipe. There's a single ingredient it doesn't include, dust from the grave of Kair. So far it works just as well as the other sort.
So let me get this straight. You don't seem to know some of the most rudimentary elements of kerisology. You think that warangan is some kind of "dye" and you don't seem to understand the very definition of the term Empu, yet you expect us to believe that you heard of these men years ago! Why don't you grow up and stop pretending you know everything. Only then can your true learning begin.
The Prambanan Meteor Peace to all, Just to add to nechesh: According to Harsrinuksmo, some time in the mid 18th century two lumps of meteorite fell in the village of Prambanan between Solo and Yogya. The king of Solo PB III brought the smaller one to the Solo kraton in 1784. In 1797 the PB IV brought the larger peice, over a cubic meter to his kraton. Smaller peices were collected and traded by locals, and before WWII the price was twice the price of gold. The big piece can still be seen in the PB kraton in Solo, and it is named Kanjeng Kiai Pamor. The kratons in both Solo and Yogya use it to make their keris - up till now. I would suspect that before the Prambanan meteor fell there the idea and the use of meteorite in the pamor of keris was already traditional. There is no evidence that the 18th century Jawanese considered the use of meteorite as something novel, which would be expected if the idea of using meteorite was new. Iron has always been imported to Jawa and respected historian D.Lombard even went to suggest that Jawa keris are characteristically small because of the rarity of iron there. Meteorite in keris is a sexy subject and if you go to a keris seller Indonesia and insist that you want a keris with meteorite pamor it is very likely that she or he will be able to show you several. However as Nechesh said there is no way to prove either way if the making of the keris was not recorded. Warm Salaams to all, KC
Nechesh you portray yourself as knowing much, even about Science and if so you should know that meteorites are slightly radioactive Now I know why you think all kris makers have mystical powers I know about the meaning of meteorite from above and iron from Earth. But you should know that my all meteorite keris steel still has the same meaning i.e. meteorite from above and carbon from Earth. This is only symbolic though and dose not mean that the keris will automatically have mystical powers, in both cases
"One of the remarkable things about SaU 169 is its very high concentration of radioactive thorium. By assuming that SaU 169 came from one of the most radioactive spots in gamma-ray maps, Gnos and his team were able to limit the origin of the meteorite to a few sites on the moon's surface. They narrowed the candidates down to one, the Lalande Crater area, by matching the ages of known craters to the dates of the second and third impacts. The last impact, which launched the meteor into space, occurred less than 340,000 years ago. SaU 169 thus presumably spent a relatively short time in outer space before Earth's gravity pulled it in. --Michael Schirber " Sicentific American I am not saying that meteorites are highly radioactive but meteorite Iron will be more radioactive then a lump of modern steel, assuming you don’t get it from a radioactive hot spot on earth
I dont profess to have any special powers, or gifts from a god I doubt exists. However, I have handled old silat weapons where I have felt a surge of something in the blade. A few times I have rapidly set the blade down and backed away with the taste of blood in my mouth. Other times there has been a simple warmth radiating from the blade, and most often there is nothing, just a nicely crafted, well balanced weapon. The significance in that ... I dunno, I just have to be careful with the weapons I choose I guess.
I am no expert in the field of kerises, but what I heard was that kerises made in the era and area of the Kingdom of Dhoho were made of meteorite. Is this correct? Garuda...
Narrue (and anyone interested in this fascinating subject of meteoric ore and the keris), here is a link to an indepth and well researched discussion from the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum. It is FIVE! web pages long and has many links throughout to other related websites. So grab a cup of coffee guys and pull up a chair. I'm sure you will allfind it most imformative and hopefully it will dispell some rumors and myths: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269&highlight=meteorite
i don't know why the big fuss about. the use of meteorite in blademaking is generations old. And not only restricted to Kerises. the meteorite metal is superior because it is not an iron ore but an 'primitive' steel alloy, with various small amount of other metals (beryllium, manganese, even titanium, etc). but it takes a good swordsmith to form that in to a sword/keris/katana. Many historical legends abound that told us how an ore was so difficult to use, that an 'extra' ritual must needed, ergo an experienced, well respected, 'professor' is needed. concerning mysticism, well mostly it is only self-suggestion. A keris may make us invulnerable to bullets if we choose to believe it so. If not, it is still a deadly weapon. but i do believe that a well-made keris can withstand more 'tenaga dalam' when wielded, even absorb some of it to make it more deadly (e.g. increase in structural integrity, etc). then again, to really detect these, you need to train your internal systems hard to develop the sensitivity for it. Butm jokingly, my guru said when I achieve it, I might not need that weapon.
Many things on this planet are SLIGHTLY radioactive. It is the nature of the decay of matter. Slightly radioactive will not make a geigercounter "go wild" as you stated in an earlier post. And you will not be able to detect meteorite in a keris this way either. Period. If you can show me the post where i claimed ALL keris makers have mystical powers i would be very interested to see it. You know full well i was only referring to your comments on the 3 empus. Please stop trying to twist my words to make me look bad, It only reflects upon yourself. I am beginning to think you must be a very young man indeed. BTW, i think it is the very rare keris that exihibits signs of mystical power, regardless of it's age.
Kiai, i will certainly concede that meteoric pamor may have existed before Prambanan. I am just trying to establish that it wasn't the norm in keris pamor, but something very, very special.
