ok, i have a question..

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by ThaiMantis, Jan 30, 2005.

  1. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    I'm not religious. I'd have to say when pushed I would answer Jedi, or perhaps a fundamentalist suicide bombing style agnostic.

    but i think physics could perhaps have given us a possible clue to the afterlife , or some more interesting questions at least..

    bearing in mind we now know that:

    a) at the smallest level we understand, we are nothing more than a collection of magnetically & electrically charged particles, bound together by force fields

    b) we are an electrically operated mechanism, with tiny electrical signals firing nerves and muscles

    c) energy cannot die, but only change form,

    my question is what happens to your electrical "lifeforce" when the body gives up?

    is this the spirit ?

    seems to make more sense to me than any religious story..
     
  2. Mike O'Leary

    Mike O'Leary Valued Member


    by setting your own perameters you have answered your own question.

    Mike O'Leary
     
  3. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    parameters?

    i concede that i may have ended with a loose possible conclusion, but feel free to introduce any other material, ideas, concepts whatever?

    i just needed a background of facts established to set the question. i didnt mean to limit conversation by parameters, honestly..

    jus say what you think regarding that train of thought..
     
  4. Mike O'Leary

    Mike O'Leary Valued Member



    As a martial artist for the last 25 years I have come to several conclusions. Reference to the system as being electrical is an assumption. We are definatly a body with neuro pathways through which stimulas moves.... but that is the function of the body..... the body dies and the function ceases,,, the spirit is the essence of the being, not the essence of the body.

    Mike O'Leary
     
  5. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    but

    but hey, its not an assumpption is it?

    ..we can measure the tiny electical signals in the nerves, we can even make muscles contract & relax by insertion of electricity into nerves in experimental surgery? a pacemaker? little electric shocks to the heart? its a tiny little electrical cabling system to send minute charges from spinal cortex through motor nerves to muscles, and back again through the sensory nerve system for motor feedback?

    sure thats how it works? oversimplified slightly perhaps but roughly the gist?
     
  6. Mike O'Leary

    Mike O'Leary Valued Member


    I agree, but still part of the body....... you asked about the spirit.

    mike
     
  7. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    I think your reasoning is logical, if you assume that this premise is true. I don't think it is. What if we really are more than a collection of charged particles? What if there really is a non-physical entity called a 'soul' that is different from your physical body, or a 'mind' that is distinct from the physical organ called your brain?

    You are correct that the energy in your body is neither created nor destroyed, but changes form. Typically, though, the electrical currents in your body at death would dissipate, and eventually turn to random electrical energy and/or thermal energy. You are making the mistake of assuming that, in order to exist, your spirit must be a phyisical entity.

    I don't want to get into cross-posting. I think I described my thoughts on this a little better in your other thread (on qi gong and science).
     
  8. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    assuming..

    i wasn't? i was just saying i'd find it easier to believe there is a spirit or soul, and hence a spiritual world if we could measure it or prove it, (at the risk of crossposting again, like your approach to Chi) or at least theorise in in the absence of instruments capable of measuring it existing yet?

    ..and that if there were a physics style understanding of it, perhaps the religious explanations of things wouldnt sound quite so implausible to me?
     
  9. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    No.
     
  10. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The law of Energy Conservation seems to give credibility to reincarnation, because since Energy cannot be created or destroyed, and the amount of energy entering a system must equal the energy out, it is logical to assume that our life energy will become the life energy of another organism when we die.
     
  11. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    hey, now you...

    ...are an undergraduate in physics... perfect, i knew one would show up eventually :)

    wanna elaborate a bit? No seems a bit of a leap of faith to an agnostic..
     
  12. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    Not really. I agree that your thought process shows that reincarnation at least has a physical analogy, but it really doesn't prove it, or even show that it is likely.

    First, science hasn't isolated anything called a "life energy". It has not been shown to even exist, so the idea that it must be conserved is something of a leap. Also, the Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy is neither created nor destroyed, but just changed from one form to another. Therefore, it does not mean that when one life dies another must take up that same energy. It does mean that when your chemical and electrical systems shut down, that energy must go somewhere.....such as into dissipated thermal or chemical energy. It doesn't even have to go into another living system.
     
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I agree it doesn't prove it, proof would make the whole process of kicking the bucket quite boring really, but the basic logic is there and science doesn't disprove it either.
     
  14. ThaiMantis

    ThaiMantis New Member

    yeh but..

    if we can just take a different mindset on this for a moment..

    i replaced a couple of "doesn'ts" with "could" s in your paragraph with the bold text, and inserted a "yet"

    ..can we catagorically and scientifically say this statement is absolutely, definitely, without any doubt, possibly under any circumstances not true?

    physicists in the house tell me please.
     
  15. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    so just because science can't disprove it, religion proves it?

    thats the logic most religious people have adopted {from my experiance}
    "If we can't prove it, then it was god" same concept. Thirst for knowladge people. thirst for knowladge.

    "religion is mans way of understanding that which he cannot
    prove"-Rufus Shinra
     
  16. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    First, as a matter of courtesy and protocol (forum decorum ??) Could you please NOT post something that says "QUOTE", and then change any of the words?

    Second, you overdid it with the "could" and "might" statements. Some of the statements I made are categorically true (e.g., "this is what the Law of Conservation of Energy states"). Changing these to 'could' or 'might' statements just makes the whole thing unnecessarily clouded.

    Third,
    This statement would be absolutely, definitely, without any doubt, possibly under any circumstances not true. Energy does not 'have to go' into a living system. It can go into a living system. Sometimes it does (like when a vulture eats a road-kill). But energy from a dead organism would not go solely into another living organism (and this follows from Conservation of Energy, as well).
     
  17. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    HolyHeadJch - see my other posts about thermodynamics and reincarnation. Gerard tried to justify it with thermodynamics, when actually the laws of entropy would be violated. Also, it might violate the laws of relativity, depending on how it's done (same argument as local conservation of charge).

    ThaiMantis - A lot of the energy in your body is stored as chemical potential energy. It doesn't have to go anywhere, it just stops getting converted into kinetic energy to move your muscles. Proof that it's still their is in rigormortis. Also, the electromagnetic potential energy in your body will remain there indefinitely. All it does is hold you together. If it went away, you'd go flying to pieces. Also, any excess charge in your body would slowly leak out.

    Finally, energy can't carry a "consciousness" in it. Energy won't inherently contain any information at all. You can encode information into packets of energy, but then you have to decode it again to get anything meaningful out of it. You couldn't have you "soul" stored in an electromagnetic wave in any useful way. And certainly, you couldn't just have an EM wave stored in your body that's released at death. The very idea doesn't make any sense, physically speaking. EM waves must be continually propegating at C.
     
  18. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Hey hey hey back up, I wasn't trying to 'justify' anything, I merely posted a theory that was solicited by another member.

    ...and Tekkengod who the hell said I was religious? Science hasn't proven many things, it doesn't mean they dont exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2005
  19. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    oh, sorry. that wasn't directed towards you. i was stating as a whole.
    my bad.
     
  20. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    sorry for flying at you, being called religious causes the red mist to descend,
     

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