Not stopping when tapping

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by 9021oh, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Rolling works with the tap because the opponent is partially immobilized by the ground. I have the feeling the tapping is coming from standing joint locks in kenpo.

    How often in grappling do you tap out from a standing joint lock? Not very often at all because any standing lock is probably being used as a take down.
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Oh maybe I misread the original post. Are we talking about submissions on the ground? In that case, mobility in one direction is stopped by the ground. This means you really don't have any way of rolling with the technique without actually countering it early on. Given that countering is probably not allowed outside of free rolling. Yeah that is a totally a bonehead thing if he is hurting you, it is totally up to him to protect you.

    I really thought we were talking about standing locks and that you just needed to help out by learning how to change a lock into a take down. A lot of people will tap out on standing joint locks because they are afraid of the fall. Once their ukemi skills get better, they might tap when in pain, but it is not a tap out, it is just, "hey I'm not giving up, I just need you to slow down so I can apply ukemi to protect myself".
  3. stephacts238

    stephacts238 Valued Member

    Tapping and release is important for injury prevetion. I have had my instructor lessen the severity without letting go of the tecnique completly.

    It is ultimatly your health and descision to move on. If it is a consistant and constant thing to not release on tapping then I would find a new school.
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Leave for a few months.
    When you come back say you had to stop training because he injured your joint the last time you trained.

    Or just leave. He doesn't sound like someone I'd trust with my body.
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    this is what happens when you dont go to a good gym to learn about grappling ...insecure people who dont know what they are doing like to inflict some pain to prove a point....good grapplers know that to lock a joint you need to isolate it, and once you have done this you dont need to rush the lock

    oh and an instructors first priority is the safety of his i would leave........ if you want to learn locks go to a judo or BJJ club
  6. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    LEAVE - Tell the instructor that you are unhappy with what he does so he knows why you are leaving - but LEAVE !!!
  7. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    9021oh, you are going get hurt if you continue to train there there
  8. Kemposhot

    Kemposhot Valued Member

    Seriously consider either talking to him and seeing if that helps or leaving. If you are in serious pain where you felt as though you may of had to defend yourself then something is wrong here.

    Thinking about it, many joint locks etc, can cause really serious damage, and its important for you to feel how they effect people. That being said, in a training environment you are not there to kill each other and a certain level of respect is expected. Such as easing up on someone when they tap.
  9. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    The instructor may believe that you need to move further through the technique, learn to relax etc for your own development. Whilst training in Japan with senior teachers I experienced a situation where I was used as an example as Uke (early in my training days) where I tensed up in massive pain - the teacher used this to explain how we needed to relax to protect ourselves.

    He did not injure me and it was a lesson for both me and the class.

    Your instructor may have the same mindset, but lacks the maturity as a teacher to lead you to this knowledge, and along the way injure you.

    You seem early in your training from what you say, and therefore if you are adamant that you wish to continue in the same style or martial art further (rather than switching) then why not just find another class of this same martial art in a similar location and see if the feeling is consistent there?

    You may also wish to consider switching drinks - it is often better to drink a 30 year old cognac than an 8 year whiskey - look at your geography and explore who is there within all arts at a high level.

    If you share your town/state perhaps some people could point you in the right direction for what we know to be good training with skilled people?
  10. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest


    Get yourself to a good grappling school. There is no reason to continue once someone has tapped. That is not a sign of skill. Leave now.
  11. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Honestly, if I was learning a grappling art and some guy started doing this to me I'd kick ten shades of crap out the A-hole. Start biting his ear or something and stop a second AFTER he says stop - see how he likes it.
  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I never thought I would hear you espousing 't3h D34dl37' :jawdrop: :)
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    He can believe what he wants.
    He ain't in charge of my joints though.
    A person obviously can acclimatise themselves to being in a submission beyond what they feel as a beginner. I can remember tapping in BJJ when someone had me mounted (just because I didn't know what to do!) but these days will fight a triangle (and other non damaging subs) pretty hard.
    But that is something I had to work out for myself through experience. Not some outside party doing it for me.
  14. gasolino

    gasolino Valued Member

    To the OP

    I cross train and have had 5 lessons in BJJ now. Not once has a fellow student or the instructor hurt me in a joint lock, (and there have been many)! We slow it down just before the lock point and we go slow until we reach the point where we tap.I like this way it's because it's less likely anyone will make a mistake that hurts someone. Also they run through a few pointers of that particular move at the same time. The more experienced guys do it all alot faster but I doubt I would learn as much if I trained like that. I am learning so much from them all and am thoroughly enjoying it!
    Just my experience as a BJJ newbie. FWIW
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sorry, I'm still not sure if the OP means ground fighting submissions or standing joint locks. It is Kenpo afterall.

    Either way no permanent damage should be allowed in training. However, it does make a difference what ukemi is used in training.
  16. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    well so far I haven't suggested he use a "fight stopping groin kick" or a blinding one finger eye jab. :)
  17. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I'll point out that with standing wrist locks, finger locks and other associated nonsense there is the chance to lessen the impact of the technique without stopping it e.g. turning a littler slower to alow someone to catch up with the movement and relieve the pressure or stoppping applying the technqiue then reapplying it (I suspect this is what Rebel Wado means when he says ukemi?) but there is little point to doing this.

    We used to have one class a year during freshers week (uni club) where the instructor would demonstarte some of the self defence techniques in this way using the club president as a guinea pig. It was a bit of fun with finger locks with the guy hopping up and down, hair pulling, trips and the occasional Indian Burn on a pinned guy. Not effective in real life but actually fairly funny. I don't remember any particular admonishment for people to let go during the self defence training* that occured in thiose sessions either as it was clearly conveyed as a joke during the demo.

    In regular training, whilst it can be performed without causing injury as it's frequency rises the risk rises. Making it a part of regular practice seems idiotic to me.

    * Actually I remember now that they said remove the pressure when they tap but, as the recipient, just once tap but then ask them to slowly ramp up the pressure after that till you have to tap again to get a sense of the technique. Never caused a problem and seems reasonable enough.
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Very close Slindsay to what I was talking about with the standing joint locks.

    Every lock can be a throw or a break also. The only principle is always stun or unbalance before locking/throwing/breaking.

    So in Aikido, the locks are used as throws (takedowns) and thus the ukemi taught is to allow for the safety of the one on the receiving end but at the same time for the one putting on the technique to feel the full range of motion.

    In law enforcement, many of the locks are kept as locks and used to control a person, like escort them out the door. These pretty much only work because the one on the receiving end does not really want to fight back. The reason is that because they aren't pinned against the ground or a wall, it is near impossible to have a standing lock completely control someone in all directions.

    In Kenpo, a majority of the locks are BREAKS and are done with the stunning first. So a lock can go to a point where the partner "taps" which indicates about the point just AFTER stunning them and the point before a "break". In real world application, at the point of tap the break would have already happened. There is NO submission. Kenpo is about flow and broken timing as much as anything. Take a finger lock, it would be used for leverage, but primarly the finger lock would stun (it might or might NOT break the fingers), but to be effective it needs to stun. The opponent being stunned momentarily from the finger lock, then you would follow in Kenpo with something like a strike to their chin and buckling their closest knee. There would be no expectation for a submission on the finger lock and it would not stop the technique except when necessary to avoid injury to training partner.

    The only submission are in ground fighting.
  19. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Hopefully he has lots of students...cuz from the sounds of it, he'll lose more than he gains if he ain't careful! Demonstration and instruction shouldn't equal to breaking or injuring!
  20. 9021oh

    9021oh New Member

    Thanks everybody! Last Saturday really was the last straw. When the arm lock was applied (it's difficult to explain which one).. I was tapping and one of the students yelled work through the pain. This is while it was being demonstrated on me multiple of times.

    Thanks again everybody... What great forum!

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