Non-violent self defense

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Tony Wolf, Jan 22, 2005.

  1. Tony Wolf

    Tony Wolf New Member

    This is a follow on from the "Fighting with Friends" topic. I've been in similar situations, having to defend myself against people whom I didn't want to hurt for various reasons. I've also occasionally had to restrain people who were trying to harm others, or themselves. Assuming that the situation has already become physical, i.e. that talking someone down isn't an option, I would always opt for control techniques rather than strikes if at all possible.

    About ten years ago I had to deal with a very disturbed individual who was intent on self harm (not suicide, but serious damage). I was able to close with this person and take them down into a double yokehold restraint, so that both arms were pinned and they were face-down on the floor. This person then began to beat their own head into the floor and I had to use my head to press their's down until they had no more room to hurt themselves (sorry about all the plurals but I don't want to give any details that might identify this person). The next step was to talk them down, which took quite some time.

    Has anyone else been forced to "fight" with someone who they did not want to hurt?

    Cheers,

    Tony
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah, especially when alchohol and egos are involved. What can start off as just some slapping and pushing can escalate to all out wrestling match when one side refuses to quit.

    Many years ago, a friend of a friend had been drinking and wanted to see a martial arts technique, well it ended up the guy didn't want to stop there. There was a glass table and lamp and not a whole lot of room, so I just took the guy down on me to avoid anyone getting thrown into the glass. I ended up holding the guy in my guard keeping him close and entagling him until someone came and threw a pitcher of water on us to break it up.

    Two lessons came out of this, one is never to undersestimate the intentions of the other, for it isn't the dog in the fight, it is the fight in the dog, so don't be caught by surprise when someone you don't want to hurt refuses to quit and keeps going. Another was that if you aren't trying to hurt someone, your technique has to be perfect because you can't just use striking and force to make up for imperfect technique or to soften them up or knock them out.

    Actually a third lesson and I should have known better. Avoid fighting, just back away, talk it out. If they have been drinking, ask them if they tend to become violent when drinking beforehand, make it a conversation instead of a confrontation.

    Oh, and be willing to give in and cover vitals if that is what it takes, but of course never give up if it comes down to you or them, but just be smart about things. I've ended fights with one good strike/elbow to the solarplexus, not because I wanted to hurt them, but because I knew I could hit them there with some force in a way to knock the wind out of them without breaking bones. Hitting arms and legs have also ended some fights as they feel the pain and their limbs go sort of dead -- bruises heal faster than broken bones.

    But bear in mind, if the other is determined not to quit, hitting arms and legs and even knocking the wind out of them will only give them a chance to reconsider their situation, it won't end the determination. Only controlling or destroying their structure, their ability to harm you will do that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2005
  3. Tony Wolf

    Tony Wolf New Member

    Controlling the structure

    I agree, in the situation I described above it came down to completely controlling the structure so that the other person had no room to move. However (and this might be important) they were still able to exert themselves by struggling against the restraint hold, and this probably helped to burn off some of the adrenalin. Once they started to tire and take more controlled breaths it was possible to begin talking.
     
  4. Pete Ticali

    Pete Ticali Valued Member

    Never say never

    The situation is more common than you might imagine

    Besides the friend, It could be a relative, Your sister's husband or many others. It also comes up quite a bit when professionals are involved. A martial arts Police officer, etc. has a double edged sword. He/she is always worried about legal implications, and has to protect weapons at the very same time that he/she needs to "stop" the situation.

    Many lessons in the dojo can be taught in three different modes. We use the basic technique/drill to introduce the theory to a group of students.. At some point in the future, we can teach a modified "street" version more adaptable to quick closure of the situation. There also should be a "safe" version showing how to incorporate take downs vs. strikes, or immobilizing techniques rather than breaks, throws etc. In addition, I try to have a 4th version that I might share with professionals. Their legal predicament requires a version that protects their weapon at all times, requires a quick concise nulification of threat and needs to be safe from the many legal implications that both the agency and the public hold them to.

    Pete Ticali
     
  5. CobraMaximus

    CobraMaximus Banned Banned

    Some wierd guy in my school decided to fight me, dont know why but he wanted me dead for some reason so he attacked me. I screwed a few of his joints with some holds but then accidentally threw him into a few chairs because he wsa trying to get away.
     
  6. Tony Wolf

    Tony Wolf New Member

    Hi Pete,

    sounds like a good policy, and I reckon it's valuable to have that kind of flexibility in your approach. "One size fits all" doesn't really apply to self-defence training.

    Cheers,

    Tony
     
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I sit on people, what can I say, its what I do. Works quite well too, people get bored easy.
     
  8. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    My GF works with people with learning dificulties, she was once attacted by a 16st partialy sighted, deaf, epeleptic woman with sever communication and learning difficulties who got hold of her hair and neck, another staff member came into the room looked at what was happening and walked back out again (and denied it later), all she could do was hold the woman hand of her throat and try to tire her out. If she had fought back full force she would have been in danger of 1- causing a seisure, 2- abusive behaviour.
     
  9. Spookey

    Spookey Valued Member

    Combative Juveniles...

    Dear All,

    Yet another senario often incountered by law enforcement and professional security is that including juveniles.

    The state of Alabama has a generic force continuem as do all other states. This is the progressive order in which the level of force should be raised to be "threat appropriate". It generally goes as follows:

    1. Verbal Commands ("Stop, Back Off, Move Away, On your Face, ect.)
    2. Soft Techniques (Takedowns & Restraints or "Arrest and Control")
    3. Chemical Irritants (Mace, Pepper Spray, OC Gas)
    4. Hard Techniques (Strikes, impact weapons <ASP or PR-24)
    5. Lethal Force (Impact weapon to head, Blades, Firearm, ect.)

    Anyhow, when dealing with juveniles the juditial system is mighty peculliar. Generally, you are expected to use a lower level of force. For some reason I (5' 9", 170lbs) are expected to use "soft techniques" to defend an assault by a 6' 2", 235 lb. attacker because he is a "Juvenile".

    This is yet another situation when you have better had spent some good quality time working your release and control techniques! Also, you must have good insight into the escalation of the incounter...it may be to late if you let you neglect your most valuable asset, your mind!

    TAEKWON!
    Spookey
     
  10. Tony Wolf

    Tony Wolf New Member

    I've been reviewing some of the medical, academic and legal accounts of therapeutic restraint; the sort of training offered to workers in psychiatric hospitals, etc. It seems that people are really hamstrung by what the institutions are prepared to pay for. It's quite common for these organisations to bring in a professional trainer for a two-day workshop and then have the graduates from that workshop train others within the organisation. Bear in mind that they're trying to teach people how to defend themselves and restrain violent attackers, without any injury to either party ...

    Tragically, there are a number of reports of fatalities arising from "therapeutic restraint holds" being badly applied.

    Tony
     
  11. Spookey

    Spookey Valued Member

    Force Continuem...

    Tony Wolf,

    Most of these fatalities are probably caused by control techniques that are based on head control. Most "amatuer" practitioners do not understand the numerous ways in which serious or fatal damage can be incured by applying certain control techniques with the main point of control being the head.

    Force continuem dictates that applying holds that encompass the head or neck area fall between "Hard Strikes" & "Lethal Force". There are so many ways in which severe trauma can happen. Disruption of blood to the brain do to applied preasure or arterial perferation, seperations in or of the ceribrial column (brain stem), oxygen depervation, ect.

    One must know how to properly apply (and monitor) restraint techniques focusing on the head as the object of control. The knowledge required for utiizing said techniques is definately not something learned in a "Quick Reference" seminar, and the ability to instruct in such skills requires far more knowledge than is required for simple application.

    Train safe and effectively, know the applicable laws, and be conscious to keep the perp conscious!

    TAEKWON!
    Spookey
     
  12. Tony Wolf

    Tony Wolf New Member

    According to my research so far, the majority of fatalities are caused by cardiac arrest (a person dies struggling against a restraint hold) followed by suffocation. In the latter cases, the victim has often been restrained in a hold that places the restrainer's body weight on the victim's torso. This is seriously compounded if the hold has involved crossing the victim's arms over their chest, when there are several people involved in the restraint, and when the restrainer is considerably heavier than the victim. There are also cases of strangle-holds having been maintained until the point of death.

    Unfortunately, it does seem that the great majority of institutions only offer short-term training courses to nurses, orderlies and others who may have to apply these holds. Although the guidelines most of them follow specify adequate and regular training in these techniques, the reality is that the quality and quantity of training varies wildly depending on the institution.
     
  13. Preta

    Preta New Member

    I would recommend looking into CDT Trainning. It mainly deals with disabling an attacker by "pinching" nerve endings. I've been through an introductory seminar, and I can vouch for it's effectiveness. One of it's main draws is the fact that it will hold in court due to the fact there are no strikes involved.

    For more info: http://www.cdt-training.com/

    -Adam
     
  14. Pete Ticali

    Pete Ticali Valued Member

    Thanks Preta

    I am very familiar with CDT.
    I have worked with Tom Patire ( the CDT Founder) several times and consider him a good friend. My son who also happens to be a NYPD Narcotics Team officer is a certified INstructor with CDT.

    Tom's work is definately "part" of the concept I envisioned earlier

    Pete Ticali
     

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