In - sport, you throw your opponent "completely". - combat, you throw your opponent "1/2 way". All throws can be executed 1/2 way. When you rotate your opponent's body with his head down and legs up, if you stop your throw, your opponent's head will hit straight down to the ground. A general term for that can be called "throw 1/2 person".
And this differs from a sport how? Once again we have someone with ZERO experience in a "sport" system claiming there is a difference....there isn't. Breakfalls are for safe practice only - in reality you get dumped you on your head or ass
In my experience the throws in the buj are, structurally speaking, pretty similar to judo There are of course differences in the less structural elements for example: - the set ups typically use strikes to create the situation for throwing - covering against "illegal counters" - adding locks - kicking rather than sweeping and, as talked about above, making relatively minor changes in direction or striking during the throw to prevent ukemi being taken (which is risky for your partner)
The throws in the Bujinkan do not look like judo at all, or like the techniques in the previously posted videos. To clarify I have extensive experience with BJJ and I know what works and doesnt work, and not once did I say the sporting techniques did not work, only that within the framework of the 9 ryu the way sporting throws are done are incorrect. Now perhaps instead of incorrect I should have said something like, are use/taught/carried out in the wrong context for the purpose of the 9 ryu. By that I mean do you believe you could practice the solo drills etc or partner drills in a sporting fashion with armour on? without your technique changing at all? This is the context for the Bujinkan throws. So in terms of Bujinkan practice they are incorrect/out of context, it terms of do both ways work? obviously, but only one way works with both armour and no armour. If people would like to round their back and bend over in the fashion that they do with sporting techniques then they should continue to do so, but for the purposes of practice in the Bujinkan and the 9 ryu, they shouldn't in my understanding from what I have been taught by my teachers in Japan. But should they have exposure to people who practice like this? yes, everyone should go meet and practice with other styles. Hannibal you said "Breakfalls are for safe practice only - in reality you get dumped you on your head or ass". I completely agree. And to clarify what I said and for lack of a better choice of words, there is no back rounding and bending as seen in Sports techniques in the "curriculum's" of the nine ryu. If you are wanting to train and learn the methods of nine ryu then you should practice using their methods. If you start adding in sports techniques and other schools techniques to fill in the gaps of your training, you cannot claim it as Bujinkan or the nine schools, there are way too many youtube videos and subscription websites with so called Bujinkan Shihan doing this already and are lying about the source of where the techniques come from. If they were just honest and said hey I learned this at BJJ or this throw at judo or wrestling etc it would be much better. Thanks.
Really? I'm not sure that I agree - there are differences of course (as mentioned above), but the core structure/principles of many judo throws can be found across the ryuha I feel
Different take. In combat you throw them 1/2 way into something (or strike them with a knee or kick). For a full throw, you throw them 1+1/2 way causing them to over rotate and hit with more force on the wrong place (such as on the tailbone or a joint).
gtlaau, One point you seem to be missing is the relationship between good technique and practical application. You seem to be describing what is good technique, but your have not presented any real evidence that the technique is practical application. Judoka test out application to see if it is practical. In doing so, especially if equally experienced, factors such as speed and power make a difference where technique is not enough. Most cases of not perfect technique are going to involve using speed and power to compensate. What you are missing is seeing what part of the technique is good and what part is speed and power being used to compensate. It isn't one or the other. You can have the use of speed and power AND still have OTHER parts of the technique be good. The final goal is to not rely on speed and power, so you want to perfect your technique... but when the opponent is strong and fast, it isn't that simple. What of looking at technique of some of the great Judoka like Mifune. There is less use of strength and speed as a compensator and more letting the good technique do the work: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerg7l-iwmk"]Kyuzo Mifune, The Best Judo Master - YouTube[/ame]
Isn't it annoying when you have read something but can't remember where you have read it? But I'm sure Nagato Shihan said something along the lines of... "The throws in this art are not actually throws, they are breaks. The fact that one ends up on the ground is the result of that break" So for example Ganseki Nage is often called a throw but actually if performed correctly your arm will be broken before you actually get thrown. The fact that someone goes down is caused by the fact that your arm is now broken and the momentum of that break has propelled you forward. If theres any difference between this art and say a sporting martial art like judo, it is this.
In the same way that a submission is not a submission presumably I would also suggest that it is becomes a throw as the person AVOIDS the break rather than the break takes then inro the throw
Whilst there are many throws in the ryuha that involve breaks etc, there are also many throws in the ryuha that do not break the partner......
That makes sense. From what I understand, in martial arts technique, any throw can be a lock or a break, any lock can be a throw or a break, and any break can be a throw or a lock. There are slight differences on how the techniques are performed (such as angle of force in relation to which way the joints bend), however, the main difference is timing/speed of the technique. Ara waza (severe technique), which is generally the break, is done 200-300% faster than normal speed. Throws done at normal speed, and locks done at 50% speed. To practice a break safely, you can slow it down and turn it into a throw to allow for intensity, or slow it down more and turn it into a lock to allow for submission or compliance. Training breaks at the speeds they are really applied is not safe. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnLuzJi23MA"]How to do a Standing Kimura Armlock - YouTube[/ame]
Whilst I don't disagree with this, it's worth noting that there are specific techniques for these things which require study just as much as any martial arts technique
In reference to any break can be a lock or a throw, etc., there are differences that are important to understand. One way to think of it is to take the base technique you are studying and learn variations of that technique. The over hook shoulder lock could be a starting technique: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5iSIq14q30"]No Gi BJJ Techniques: The Overhook Shoulder Lock - YouTube[/ame] And Osoto Gari the throw version of the over hook shoulder lock. I have a very liberal view of "variation" though. Osoto Gari completely skips the shoulder lock. However, you can shoulder lock and use Osoto Gari: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JL1Hw7M3cU"]Judo - Osoto Gari - 大外刈 - YouTube[/ame]
