Noises?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Tintin, Jul 8, 2004.

  1. Tintin

    Tintin Cats: All your base...

    Just wanted to start a thread on whether or not you make 'noises' (of the vocal kind :rolleyes: )while in an aiki class.

    By this I'm not talking about kiai, more the loud exhalation of breath (kind of like a drawn out "Haaaiiii") I've heard many do when grabbing an opponent, or striking with a weapon.

    I can't see it being to generate extra power, so can anyone put me on the path to enlightenment?!
     
  2. kevamania

    kevamania Valued Member

    kokyu

    Maybe it has something to do with why kokyu(breathing exercises) are practiced.
    Is what you refer to often heard when someone is taking ukemi?
    A noise like this often is a sign uke is commited to an attack.
    Maybe it gives the experienced aikidoka an indication towards uke's timing/speed of attack and what principal/technique to aplly.
    I honestly dont have a notion :confused:
    But it is definitly interesting
     
  3. Tintin

    Tintin Cats: All your base...

    No, I don't think I've ever seen an uke do this when taking ukemi.
    Your idea about showing a committed attack sound good, although some would argue that all attacks should be committed. And when the attack is a grab, you can feel how committed it is rather than just seeing and hearing it.

    Thanks for the thoughts, anyone else got a viewpoint / perspective / slant / lecture / guess they'd like to add?
     
  4. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    Im abit confused martin to what your asking, you say your not talking aboout kiai. Then say a exhalition of breath. This is what kiai is. weather im doing saburi or kumitachi or grabbing, striking and always always when throwing kokyunage. We were told in Iwama that you must always kiai. its very good you bring this up mate. Ive always wanted to know if anyone knew the reason why the founders son took out kiai from the hombu school. Do you know there is no film footage of the founder performing Aikido from the 30s onwards whithout him using strong kiai(providing the footage has sound). As for Ukemi its a very very good idea to atleast breath out when being thrown, or taking the fall. If you dont breath when falling/rolling you automatically tense uo the muscles that are being impactted on the ground which will result in lost energy very quickly, this is no good if you do lots of seminars or long classes. plus you feel better if you awaze(blend) your breath with your movments.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2004
  5. Picksey

    Picksey New Member

    I think I know what you're talking about... the first time I saw it was on a course with Sensei Hayden Foster - whenever he (or his student) attacked or moved to blend with an attack, they would both exhale loudly (your "Haaaiiii" describes this perfectly). The thing I found funny, though, was the face they pull when they do it - mouth wide open, almost in a grin.

    Anyway, if I remember rightly, we were encouraged to do the same, in order to harmonise body movement, breathing and spirit. Which, thinking about it, sounds very much like the philosophy behind a kiai... :rolleyes:

    Maybe the only difference is (and I'm only speculating here) is that the kiai is short and sharp - good for quick or sudden, strong movements; whereas your "haaaiiii" is longer - allowing a more flowing movement and for you to blend...? Just a suggestion.
     
  6. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN New Member

    The short exhalation during application is similar to that used by boxers.

    The ki-ai (spirit shout) is usually only seen during great effort.

    The main difference between the two is that after the short exhalation it is not necessary to breath in again, you can do it quite a few times in a row.

    The way ki-ai is taught in Iwama (and all other forms of non-combative martial arts where form is the main teaching method) seems to be a training aid to show students the proper method of breathing when applying techniques. It is necessary because there is no real opposition, so proper breathing is not learned naturally. That is not a negative towards the style, merely that proper breathing is usually learned through sustained periods of stress. Consider running: sprinting, middle distance and long distance runners learn to control proper breathing very quickly through natural training. The same with swimming where breathing is learned through rhythm.

    In Tomiki, Judo, boxing and so on...breath is too important to waste so it is used economically otherwise you will get 'beat' if you run out of breath. So again there is natural learning going on.

    Just a minor point of view though.

    Picksey..what year were you on the IoA course?..I was last on the Y2K one in Durham :)
     
  7. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    i totally agree with almost everything said here, but it all falls under the idea of kiai. There is no 1 sound for kiai its totally personal. So long as it comes from the the centre and not fromyour chest or throat,then its just a noise. Kiai can and is either long or short, its used for many different reasons. Sorry dex but the idea behind kiai is a hell of lot more than breathing properly for applying tech (although its a good point and true) To understand kiai you realy have to study Zanshin. As for no real oppostion. Believe me if you ever had the chance to study in Iwama then you would realise the oppostion is very real,especailly when you make a mistake. I know its not sparring and the tech are already predecided, but the whole point of that is to make it as difficult as possible to complete the tech, that is what make your tech more effective and more powerful, ( maybe im picking you up wrong). I do agree with the thought behind sparring in tomiki ryu and boxing and other sparring sports, then your breathing has to be different or as you say if you used mad kiai in a sparring session you would last about 2 min.. The concept of budo and kiai are very different though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2004
  8. Picksey

    Picksey New Member

    Sorry, you've lost me! Don't know anything about the IoA course (I've only been training in aikido around 10 months) - I met Sensei Hayden Foster at Lowestoft earlier this year - at the course formerly known as 'The Big Three'.

    I suspect this might be a dumb question, but what's the IoA course?
     
  9. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN New Member

    Not dumb at all :)

    Foster sensei is the head of the Institute of Aikido, their summer camps are called the IoA courses.
     
  10. timmeh!

    timmeh! New Member

    I have wondered though why Shodokan/Tominki don't use the noises in comparison to other styles.
     
  11. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    The only other style other than iwama ive heard use kiai is Yoshinkan, But as stated by dex earlier there is a big difference in Kiai used in budo training compared with competition training, then noices have to be shorter for snapping motions just like in karate, tkd sparring. i would imagine its ok to make some kind of noise in tomiki when doing some of there randori forms, it makes it easier to blend your breathing with your movements. If you hold everything in you will just collapse.
    i remember reading an article in Iwama by the founder saying that marital art without kiai is a dead art. as i said before find me a film of Osensei with out him using kiai( film with sound)
     
  12. MuayKiDo

    MuayKiDo Che!

    I think the loud breathing out noises are for not forgetting to breathe at all. If u make a noise while breathing out, you are kind of forced to breathe in again. This keeps the flow and prevents you from freezing up.
     
  13. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    Totally agree with the above, so many students forget to harmonize there breathing with there body movments, kiai really helps here, But getting some no violent person into a dojo and asking them to express there movment with sound is a bloody nightmare.
     
  14. Virtuous

    Virtuous New Member

    When I practice I exhaule audibly exactly in the manner you describe. For me I really notice the benifits when breakfalling and doing roll outs from a projection throw. If you should hold your breath, you tend to bounce like a beach ball which can be painful. The quicker you can get the air out, the better off you are.
    During technique, I agree that it is a great method to regulate your breathing. Should you happen to believe in ki and its application, it is suppose to aid in that as well.
     

Share This Page