[No Mans Land] Self Learning

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by emdiesse, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. emdiesse

    emdiesse Valued Member

    [edit]
    Everyone keeps pointing out martial arts is not a solo exercise. I posted a little more about this in my next post.

    I should have added that a solo thing can be practiced alone but if the thing you want to learn itself requires more than one person then you need that. Another analogy, you can't learn football by yourself, you can learn the skills but not the tactics. I guess I should have said that you can't learn a martial art alone as it's not a solo event.
    [/edit]

    Right, I would like to address the topic of self learning. I understand this seems to be almost a taboo in the martial art world. I hear of many posts explaining how it's just not the way to learn a martial art or it simply cannot be done.

    However I feel differently. I fail to see how anything cannot be self taught. Before I go any further, let me just explain I am not here to start a war (ha!) however I have put a quick warning in the title (perhaps a no mans land forum would be good for all controversial topics).

    Anyway, as an analogy I will use learning the guitar. You can self teach yourself the guitar, you can self teach yourself the guitar to a high standard... Jimi Hendrix.

    Now martial arts, I think you can self teach. Sure you may learn the techniques wrong and get into a few bad habits but if they work then surely you could view them as variations (perhaps not perfect, but they can be corrected. Maybe not always easily but still). I totally understand learning with an instructor will speed up the process and help you get the finer details right, plus grading, being able to train with a wide variety of people, etc etc, etc.

    Back to the guitar, Jimi played a right handed guitar, left handed but with the strings switched around. This may not be how everyone plays it but it's not a bad habit no, it's just how he felt comfortable. However I am damned sure he must have had some bad habits (or better put, variations of technique) that others might not have considered efficient... But could you better him?

    So back to martial arts. I think you can learn them from book, videos, etc. It may take you longer and you might miss out detail but your going to have the majority of the technique down... right? Yes home learning is never going to be as accurate and as efficient as being taught by a professional instructor, I can accept that, but surely it shouldn't be frowned upon.

    Obviously I mean practically training not just studying the art from books. I mean getting out there with a mate and just practising together aswell as solo practice with mirrors, punch bags, weapons, whatever. Using books, DVDs, whatever for aid. Finally, I will repeat, I agree training with an instructor will always be better but it's not the only option available.

    What are your opinions? that was mine.

    P.S. I go to classes, but I would never rule out home teaching myself something.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  2. MuayInsane

    MuayInsane Spitting Feathers

    A valid point mate,however you cannot compare guitar to MA,reason being that a guitar is made for one person and one only where as most MA is competitive,how can u learn blocks and throws without some one actually throwing a kick or punch at you?I agree that some things can be learned at home like basic punches,kicks and stances but everything else is learned as a result of receiving these basic techniques being aimed at you,am i wrong?Like in Judo how can you learn to throw some one who is attacking you without being attacked?I will leave that with you mate and await an answer.
     
  3. emdiesse

    emdiesse Valued Member

    Very true. I didn't really address that as much. I should have added a bit more about training in pairs or more I guess. I added a little bit about solo practice and with a partner a bit after I first posted it. Maybe I should have said more about how you can only really practice the 'ideal' stances, punches, etc by yourself but you would need a training partner.

    Perhaps if I add guitar is a one man thing and can be self learnt alone
    martial arts is a 2+ person thing and needs exactly that.

    Cheers :D
     
  4. Sam

    Sam Absent-ish member

    Learning the guitar is very much a solo excercise, so unless Jimmy had a big hate for Mick Jagger and wanted to use his guitar to effectively beat him down that analogy is a bit flawed.

    Windsurfing is also a solo excercise, I've been teaching myself since I was about 17 and I'm still crap, my 70 year old nan won a two day windsurfing course in a raffle which she gave to me - In those two days I learnt more than I could ever hope to teach myself and not about how to move the board but how the waves affected me, wind direction, ways to get out of trouble. I knew how to basically move the board but learning those finer points transformed my ability to do the activity.

    Anyone can throw a punch or a kick so by that reasoning they can also teach themselves how to fight to a half decent level. A big part of Martial Arts is (IMO) what you can make work for you and adapting what you can't to do so, that said its usually the finer points that make you stronger at what you are doing, the things you can't nessecarily pick up from a mirror or a book.
     
  5. MuayInsane

    MuayInsane Spitting Feathers

    Haha even with 2 it's next to impossible as getting the correct hold's and counters is close to impossible as video's and book's just dont give enough detail.But i could be wrong there may be very detailed books/vids out there.All i say is that most MA's have been perfected over century's and are passed down from one generation to the next,that's why there are teachers to pass the art's on and not a library full of home teaching MA books.Thought's?
     
  6. emdiesse

    emdiesse Valued Member

    Yeah, sorry. I am not saying self learning in anyway would be as good as training with an instructor. I am just trying to address how I think it is still possible. I just felt alot of people are being discouraged from learning a martial art because they cannot find a style they like locally and the ideas of self learning are being discouraged.

    Learning with an instructor IS better, but self learning is better than not learning in my honest opinion.
     
  7. Brian S

    Brian S Valued Member

    Evan Tanner said he learned MMA through DVD instruction. I believe he is the exception, not the rule and he did do more training with instructors before putting it to the test.

    CAN you learn a martial art? Yes, you can. You can also develop bad habits and poor technique without proper instruction.

    I do believe DVD's can help your training along once you start,but alone I think is a bad idea. However, I'm not going to flame anyone for the effort.


    :hat:
     
  8. MuayInsane

    MuayInsane Spitting Feathers

    Im not flaming any one for teaching them selves,I agree with the learning at home method it's a must for fitness and gaining some experience all im saying is that you are not going to perfect it also you will have more chance of getting hurt.
     
  9. emdiesse

    emdiesse Valued Member

    Yeah, that sounds about right. Also, i saw your post on the Thai boxing forum in the self learning thread, you were cool about it. Just said how it's not the best of ideas, but you bet someone has probably done it, etc. Others on this forum don't quite go about it the same way and simply say it's just not possible, or that's the general impression I got, ha. Rather than explaining the risks of self teaching and how having an instructor is better and there is less risk in a controlled environment. Some people on here simply state how it just cannot be done. As if it's just not possible. I just felt that it was a little discouraging. Maybe I just read the responses wrong to previous threads.

    Maybe it wasn't as taboo in martial arts as I previously thought. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  10. CatWise

    CatWise Valued Member

    Sorry, I know this is long so, you have my permision to skip it :)

    Personally, I feel that you need to do both. Practice in class with an instructor and lots of different people, but practicing alone is just as important.
    As an example, I know that a lot of people HATE to do forms. I know that because on the days that we practice forms only a 1/4 of a class shows up. But, these are important as all the forms have practical applications. We learn the form, then we learn the application and you go back to the form. This makes a big difference not only in the way a form looks, but also in future dynamic circles, when you have lots of attacks coming from different directions. Forms you can practice alone and self learn them

    Now, lets move on to kicks. These you can practice A LOT by yourself, and the more you practice the better and faster your kick will become. Instructors direction in this is very helpful, especially when doing more complex kicks, like spinning kicks, 180 or 360 kicks. Instructors guidance can really help make your kick quicker or more powerful.

    Sparring techniques. Some of these, yes, you can practice on your own, like in front of mirror or on the bag and work on your hand speed, movement, combinations, etc. The more you practice your combinations and movement without the pressure the better your muscle memory becomes and then it is much easier to implement them in a sparring session with a partner, but you could NEVER practice on your own and then be able to successfully spar with someone. There are always exceptions to this rule and there are some special individuals that have a natural instincts, but most of us need to practice to be good.

    Throws and locks – well you can practice the movement, but you will never be able to be really good in this unless you practice on people, and a lot of different people. As an example, I am a women, a very BIG women as I am 5’10” and weigh 200 lbs (no I am not fat, and I don’t look like a man), but I am still pretty easy to throw for a guy that is close to my size, and VERY easy to put in a wrist lock because my wrist are small. Some guys are also easy for me to maneuver, but take a guy whose wrist are like iron and you just can’t band them, now you really need to know how to be able to implement the technique and instead of using a wrist lock, you may have to use a shoulder. Then take a guy who is much bigger then you and strength will not work, he will over power you any day of the week, again, you need to make sure that you know how to work with that. So, how could you learn this with a mirror or even if you always practice with the same person? You can’t, and a book will not explain this, you need someone that will direct you so you can always apply the technique.

    Summary, I think that you need both, you need to practice on your own, you need an instructor that is VERY well trained that can teach you not only the proper technique, but how to THINK with the technique and be able to implement it in situations. I also think that going to MA seminars and practicing with other disciplines will also broaden your skill and expertice.
     
  11. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    You pretty much hit the nail here. You have to have a partner. No question. You are MUCH LESS LIKELY to learn anything effective without a qualified coach. It's not impossible, but it's highly unlikely.

    However, there have been a few self-taught loonies out there who have changed my mind about self training. Mainly, Joe Calzaghe, who is a champion boxer. His dad trained him out of boxing text books, and provided him with sparring partners and competitions. You really can't play that down.
     
  12. emdiesse

    emdiesse Valued Member

    As the thread starter, it's only right I read it :).

    Yeah. Thats pretty much what I think. I was just failing to see why people view self teaching if there is no other way as bad


    Both > Instructor Teaching > Self Teaching > No Teaching :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2008
  13. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I think there is a great deal of difference between practicing at home a technique you've been shown by an instructor and trying to learn a style from scratch from a book with no instructor. You are absolutely correct in saying that practicing at home is vitally important (depending on the number of classes you attend per week) but if you have an instructor to check your technique after home practice you won't get into bad habits.

    Can you self teach a martial art? Yes you can. Can you self teach a martial art well? I don't think you can - obviously there will be exceptional cases, but a coach is really important for pointing out faults and for helping with some of the more complex moves. I do think, however, that it is easier for somebody who has previous martial arts experience to teach themselves a new style than it is for somebody with no MA experience

    There is also the injury problem of self teaching. For example, you have no idea how much force to apply or how to land safely and no instructor to give you advice on what is dangerous.
     
  14. MuayInsane

    MuayInsane Spitting Feathers

    Exactly emdiesse home teaching is good for perfecting what you have learned in the classroom with your Master/Instructor.That is not taboo and is not going to do you no harm.The original post before the edit stated about learning a MA at home and didnt mention you would need atleast 2 people.However now after the edit it makes sense as you wouldnt be a very good student if you didnt practice at home.I myself am trying to learn Basic stance/punching and thrust/push kicks of Muay Thai on my Heavy Bag in my shed.But i will not perfect these without an instructor but i have a basic understanding.However the stance in Muay Thai tends to be on toe's a little and im hurting like a mofo due to lack of Calf muscle mass,which im trying to correct with running with my weight towards my toe's which isnt fun lol.But overall this is a good topic and the input leans toward's the positive side.
     
  15. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    You can train on your own but you need the techniques to be taught and assessed by a professional.
     
  16. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    i think you can learn techniques bot not a martial art if that makes sense. i can do a gun disarm ive learnt from videos and some arm and leg locks, but they're simple.
     
  17. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    It really depends on what you're trying to learn, what you expect to get out of your self-teaching, and where applicable, what risks you're willing to take.

    In some cases, learning martial arts from media is quite possible and possibly even recommendable. Many people learn Thai-Bow or Khardio Kharate or whatever it is that they call it this week by imitating what they see on videos. Quite effective for that purpose.

    For other things, it's simply not going to be of much help. If you seek methods to train specifically against an opponent, you'll need a training group, period. Very preferably with qualified instruction (although an officially-sanctioned practice-group might be all that's available in your area, so you might have to compromise here depending on where you're from), or else you'll likely learn crap as well as whatever good might come out of it (as everyone else mentioned regarding bad habits). Depending on the nature of the practice, there's also the risk of injury.

    However, this topic's been done before by others.

    http://ejmas.com/pt/2006pt/ptart_taylor_0406.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008

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