No kata for me, thank you!

In a complex form of martial art such as Kung Fu I could see where Katas could be practical for learning techniques and improving them.. but when compared to a style with less strikes and less complex movement such as boxing.. I dont see it necessary to make a long chain of slowly practiced movements and strikes.. Katas are important and a good training tool but simply arent necessary in other MA. Hmm.. I think the Instuctors use Katas as a teaching tool simply because they know what everything looks like.. and that way they can say a little higher.. or lower stance.. and know without a shout of a doubt that if the technique is even slightly of that they can correct it. I think it would be interesting to see a student make a Kata of various techniques and let the instructor try it for a change.. it would be quite a learning experience on both ends.

there's my 2 cents

 

Mate, are you seriously comparing the rooting boxers do to get powers in their punches to the horrendously low stances used in karate?

That doesn't address the point of why you have to train in punching without a guard even though you will NEVER DO THAT.

It doesn't depend on the fighter, no. Different fighters may prefer to use different punches as their main strength, but learning a good jab is one of the absolute core fundamental skills of boxing.

If the situations where it might not be possible to get your guard up are situations where you won't be able to punch at all, then what's your point? If using a low stance and letting your guard down is a grappling technique, why are you practicing moving and throwing punches from it?

Then you're changing the subject, because I was asking why you use low stances and let your guard down when you punch only to throw all that out of the window in sparring, and you said this was because when you're grappling you will want a low stance and you won't be able to get your guard up.

The only way you can learn how to grapple is to grapple. Escaping holds or avoiding them in the first place is the vast bulk of grappling and you're not going to learn that by practicing punches against no resistance with a stance you're not going to use.

Not nearly enough to provide an excuse. It's miniscule.

Mate this sounds like hollywood fu to be honest.

If you want endurance, you do compound lifts doing high reps with a low weight. If you want power, you do compound lifts doing low reps with a high weight.

No-one spars without a guard in an impractical stance even in karate because there's no point. It's just too unwieldy.

If people manage to actually make it work in sparring then great. But you don't seem to be saying that. Instead, you seem to be arguing in defence of people who don't make it work in sparring.

What do you mean "apart from the chambering issue?" That's like saying "apart from killing a load of innocent jews Hitler was basically a nice guy". That's the exact problem.

Application will always create subtle differences depending on the practitioner and the situation, but karate punches used in kihon and kata are not just subtly different to those used in sparring, they're completely different techniques. If the techniques you're being taught are not the ones you're putting into action, something is very wrong with the teaching process. If you're going to punch a certain way when you spar, that is how you should punch when you train because otherwise you're wasting training time.

 

Some of these points may have already been brought to light, I've only read part of this thread. The way I use Trad. basics and movements from katas is as grabs and strikes in mostly a trapping range. I train the kyusho and tuite applications (using the Okinawan terms) and have been quite efective at making them work against resisting opponents in live training.

My core training is MMA, so this is the way that I spar. I don't advocate punching from the hip or leaving my guard down. However, if I secure a control (say finger or wrist lock) and use two-way action to pull someone into my strike, it is just like movements in the katas. Also, when using this grab and strike motion, I do plant my feet like in the katas. These movements are basically the same ones that I use in Small Circle JJ. (It is my beli that this is the original intent of the forms).

IMO, this type of training gives me another element and layer of depth to my training. These types of techniques are not natural movements and do take years of training to build the coordination to use effectively, so we introduce them and begin drilling them at intermediate levels, but put a much greater emphasis on what a student can effectively use at their stage of training. Starting w/ more kickboxing and submission grappling (w/ an emphasis on adrenal stress). I preframe the students that the "trad. basics" are more of planting seeds for future harvest.

I do agree that far too many schools use forms as a "timebuster" or filler and that the instructors themselves do not understand and can not use the techniques in real application. However, IMO it is a mistake to disregard them and throw them out. Personally, I took the time to look deeper and found the rewards for my efforts.

 

Erm... couldn't have put it better myself, and if I had done, it would have taken 3 pages of waffle. Excellent post.
Most of the above wa what I was going to say Timmy, but I just couldn't think how to put it.

This bit -

"However, if I secure a control (say finger or wrist lock) and use two-way action to pull someone into my strike, it is just like movements in the katas"

that explains chambering. Chambering most often than not is not in preperation for the next punch, it is an addition the the punch you are already doing. That's one of the reasons for it anyway.

I could go on but.... I think this man has explained everything I wanted to.

 

Hollywood fu is lots of high kicks, running around and running up walls.
These aren't "mystcal" pressure points I'm talking about, it's your basic solar plexus, back of the ear, dead leg, dead arm etc. basic stuff, I would have thought?Kidneys perhaps? Back of the head?Temple?

 

Well how about this...do the katas, every simgle movement very slowly. even when raising a leg...do it as slow as you can. now will that hurt or not. that will make your body work out better. My point is that it is not the fact that you do the kata but how you do it. some martial arts have simple movements and it may not work out. BUT when you do Wushu, for example, It is hard as hell and and by doing it, it shows taht you can move and strongly you can.

 

So why do you practice moving into another punch from that position?

Single knuckle strikes are possible in MMA gloves since they're fingerless, and if by double knuckle strikes you mean punching with the first two knuckles that's what you're taught to do in MMA anyway.

 

The reason to practice moving from one punch to another is that repetition is the mother of skill. When I teach my students how to do a triangle leg choke (as an example), once they have the coordination of the movement down pretty well, then I have them rep it out over and over. After it's in their muscle memory, then I put them in with someone with more experience and let them feel what it's like to do it both w/ resistance, then have it countered. From here, they can make adjustments and then we work on flow of transitions between this technique and others ("oops, I missed the leg choke, but I still got you w/ the arm bar").

I train my advanced students on "trad. basics" the same way. IMO, far too many instructors don't know what these movements were for in the first place. They were just told that they were important and did them. A few generations later, you have too much of the blind leading the blind. Or too amny people trying to throw out the baby with the bath water .

 

I would understand the point of repetition if it was repetition of something they would actually do. In a fight, you're not going to punch from a forward stance and then do another punch from it, even your own example was something completely different.

 

Timmy,
I may not understand what you are getting at. When we work (using my earlier example) leg chokes, we drill it both sides back and forth. When line drills were created, they were made to rep out usually for large groups of soldiers (at least in Korean arts). This made it easier to teach and rep in large groups.

In a form, you may see movements repeated and this is used to illustrate the variations of an attack. For example, using two-way action w/ a finger lock, or the same dynamic w/ a wrist lock, ect. Older trad. forms are basically a refference tool or pneumonic device to work on angle and direction of attack in common self defense scenarios. They also should (if you or the instructor know how to read the "map") teach how to compound the attack in combos.

I'm sorry that when you studied TSD that your instructor did not teach this (and probably was never introduced to it himself). Unfortunately, this is pretty common. This does not change the fact that forms can be a very effective training aid. Similar to a college student having a dictionary or thes. to refer to when writing an English paper. You can obviously get by w/o them, but this can be a valuable resource if you know how to use it. The sad thing is that the tradition of many systems restricted who had access to the effective use of this info.

 

Form/Kata isn't only about fighting. It's also about tradition and culture. People in earlier times didn't have weights or heavy machinery to train with, so they made their legs strong by doing stances. They forced their arms into muscle reflex by constantly doing repetitive movements. With forms form say the Five Animals, you could easily tell what influenced it; the aestetic beauty.

Forms/Kata are a way of demonstrating highly dangerous movements that could kill another human being without actually doing it to someone. Imagine doing a bushiken to another living human being in a sparring match. You could rupture his/her throat. Yet, if I were ever attacked, I would definately do a bushiken to immobilize the enemy. In forms/kata it's safe and controlled. Granted, it's not the same experience as doing it to another human being, the fear and power inherent in the attack.

Sparring is a training experience to learn how to respond in a fight. If you train on forms alone, then when a fight actually comes, you wouldn't know how to react. With sparring, you learn timing and blocking. You learn how to respond to situtions where a punch is actually coming at you.

How you train is also a difference. If you learn how to apply techniques, then form is a good thing. If you do forms without the knowledge of the mechanics of the form, then that's just a waste. Even sparring is still controlled and not close enough to a real fight. A real fight is completely irrational and has no rules to it whatsoever. In a real fight, I would do things that I would never think of doing in sparring; such as actually hitting to injure or maim, knees to the groin, throat hits, etc. Forms allows me to strike with purpose, whereas sparring allows me to be in a situation similar to what an actual fight could be like.

I think that a balance between forms and sparring is the best.

 

Kata is definitely an important part of the equation, as that is truly where you can find a lot of inspiration and techniques. Each kata was actually considered a "style" before (hence Gichin Funakoshi practicing Naihanci for the first nine years of his training), so each kata contains the most important elements of those styles and hence warrant some serious study.

However, without alive training (sparring, for example) and cross-training, you will never truly learn to apply what you have learned.

 

oh man i hope my karate teacher gets a hold of this one...he'll have a field day...anyway kata moves arnet what exactly you would use in sparring or fighting...as originally believed by the men who came from japan after ww2 who were taught child's karate. there are these words " bunkai " and "oyo",which mean strict kata interperetation and loose interpretation. meaning a reach out with your hand grab the head and do a forearm strike doesnt mean thats the only move there is...it ocudl aslo be an s-wrist lock. But here we go i have some videos you should see it will help you understand why there is kata. this is some filming my karate class does...if you guys want A LOT of good info find the user "explorer" and force him to give you answers against his will....good luck, its nearly impossible to get him to make him not want to answer questions

http://martialarts.thepodcastnetwork.com/

look it up!

 

Then there are recognized, respected masters like Anthony Mirakian who teach goju-ryu primarly through kata, who is anyone to say that their traditional approach is wrong?

 

Katas, unless you train them for fun or aestheticism, are futile and uselss (IMHO).

 

Katas aren't completely useless. They have their uses as stated by other posters. Some katas are very hard to do with good form and technique and athleticism.

It depends on the person. I do BJJ and MT and some basic Judo, and the only katas (are they considered katas?) I do are when performing throws on an unresisting opponent. Katas with 35-50 movements wouldn't really help my game. What helps my game is drilling leg kick/punch combinations (pad/bag work) and bjj techniques and then putting them to use in live sparring on a resisting opponent.

 

i SERIOUSLY think all of you should look at my last post on this thread because it seems like few of you know what katas are and wehre they come from and what their purpose is but anyway watch the videos in my last post, i put a link in there and it will help greatly-john

 

I can accept this explanation to a point. But the thing is that, unless you take those applications out of the kata and train them with good timing, distance, power, etc., they're probably not going to work. I just don't believe that, in the middle of "go time", you're going to relying on loose interpretations from your kata. You're not going to improvise with concepts like that. You're going to fall back on whatever basics you have drilled most instinctually into your brain. And those will be the ones you've practiced as they're to be applied ad nauseum.

Just to put this in context, I trained with kata for 10 years before stopping. And I'm not saying that they're useless. I'm saying that, the way I trained them (and the way I've seen other people train them), NOTHING from my katas ever came out in any sort of freeform environment (e.g., sparring). The instinct simply wasn't there.

I'm not suggesting that holds true for everyone. But if anyone HAS had any success implementing moves from their kata (either the standard bunkai or something more "loosely interpreted"), it would be really useful to this conversation for them to talk about that experience, how they trained it, etc.


Stuart

 

I've read two good books lately (primarily karate related but still applicable) which really cover a lot of this discussion.

The first is "Bunkai-Jutsu" by Iain Abernethy. He explains that the reason why there are so many misconceptions and BS bunkai is because people are too limited by their own training. He advocates cross-training in other arts so you can see more in your own, and sparring to apply what you learn. According to him, kata isn't a sequence of what you should do in a fight, it's a collection of techniques that you can use independently of each other. I found it to be a good read and definitely worth looking into.

The other is "Five Years, One Kata". The author (Dan Burgar <sp?> I believe) spent five years studying just one kata. No, he wasn't just doing it many times a day and that's it. He was breaking down each movement, seeing what he could get from each individual one, practicing with it, developing it, polishing it, then working to see the best way to apply it. Although a bit dry at times, he did have some valid points and some of the techniques he showed were interesting to say the least.

In my opinion, you get out of kata what you put into it. I was never much of a traditionalist before I picked up Bunkai-Jutsu. That got me interested into seeing what you can get out of it, and what makes it especially valuable is it's something you can do on your own outside of the dojo. Would I place it above hard sparring? Not at all. Would I say it's important though? Yep.

 

owens, what is in here, does work, ive used it before in a real situation, The "rising counter" video works EXTREMELY well. And what form interperetation does is make the karateka think outside the box of the basic drills, often there are bunkai that work very well. Its not like when im being attacked i think of well pinan shodan 4th step okay, attack. What we do is break down different sections of the kata and figure out how they could apply to real life attacks, and if they work we use them...if they dont we throw them away or improve uppon them. yeah....-john