Ninjutsu & the Five Elements

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Chase, Feb 28, 2004.

  1. sshh

    sshh Not Talking Anymore

    animals

    Yes, I always cringe too when I hear someone call hoko no kamae the "bear posture" - it has nothing to do with bears, and one shouldn't try to have a feeling of a bear while using it. Hoko = hoi (to encircle and envelop / to surround completely / to siege) + ko (tiger). I haven't decided yet if it means encircling a tiger, or an encircling tiger. ??

    There are a few kata that have animal names, and sometimes having an animal feeling helps with performing the kata. e.g. hicho kata (flying bird form): spring up with the kick like a bird taking off for flight, shingan (sinking goose): kneel down with arms out to the sides like wings, etc.

    Overall though, I don't think using elemental names or animal names of forms or techniques to influence how we should practice them. Just practice them as shown, and have a feeling of effectiveness more than anything else.

    There are things in ninjutsu that use the elements in a more concrete sense. The gotonpo is a method of concealment that uses nature - doton (hiding in dirt or rocks), suiton (hiding underwater), katon (using fire to aid in escape), mokuton (using vegetation), kinton (using metal tools). Also I think I read somewhere that there are different strategies of espionage termed chi, sui, ka, fu, etc. - may have been another one of sensei Hayes' appelations.
     
  2. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    I think it's taken from (en)circling tiger , in the idea that a tiger never attacks straight on, but circles around and takes it victim form the side or back. Not that the kamae has anything to do with that, but the scrolls were written that way to avoid being translated by the unitiated.
     
  3. thenightninja

    thenightninja Valued Member

    No technique is a solid technique

    The roots of ninjutsu and ninpo originated so long ago that we can no longer define the most correct or most correct application for any of the techniqes that any sensei of any clan has to offer. Therefore there is no argument to reinforce when we talk about the elements. These elements could simply be a guide for the different states of mind. Whichever you choose to believe will shape the end result of your training, hence the differing styles. Dont bring these arguments to such a forum.
     
  4. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    As far as i can see i dont see people argueing about it, and who are you to lecture us? This forum is exactly right for a thread like this as it puts people straight about things like the origin of the five element, and how can you say that soke can no longer define applications of techniques? this is his job and he does a good one at that, please only post if you have something valid to add to the thread and not just trying to whip up an arguement!

    Oh god, another kid with a mouth!! forget the above i thought it was meant for a grown up!
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2004
  5. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    You had valid point up to your last sentence. This is not an argument, but a conversation/debate. Do not presume to tell us what we can and cannot discuss on the forum, especially when you have only one post to your name. Instead, make the points you did in the beginning of your post, and offer so explanation or proof of your views. We're all more likely to listen to you then.
     
  6. Vanir

    Vanir lost my sidhe

    You know how it is, you've passed 30 and read your bit over the years and your discernments seemed to have formed themselves.
    Though not without my share of personal experience, that in this area is more academic than attended even if it stretches to typical high school years.

    I was under the impression gogyo was a philosophy (read: period science) introduced from China as "the big gooblie" (dunno what to call them damn nine schools anymore) arrived over time to today.
    Like so many religion-cum-tactics which may typify Eastern as opposed to Western civilizations, use as desired.
    In the case presented, Shanshin was it? That's how much it's ingrained in my brain there is gogyo and there is goton-po. It is certainly evolutionary to become aware of terminologies (hmm...are you guys simply learning Japanese?? <---wry sarcasm, not to be taken too seriously).

    Whilst I'd been sleeping in parks and that sort of thing, which is a pretty vulnerable way to be when the heaviest you've ever gotten is 57kg and you're pretty well exhausted to start with (hungry, lonely, etc.), I found out things like goton-po and gogyo, etc. really determine what's in your head.
    I mean, you really rely on all this stuff around then (just imagine how you'd be if it were you), you're on a park bench (literally...and getting up for work the next morning, just don't tell anybody about it coz you'll probably get the sack for being "one of those"), and any second a blade's going to just start slicing up your face.
    I've seen it before, that's how you're woken up in this kind of circumstances, getting disfigured, maimed, killed, etc.

    There's a point to the story. Gogyo is like kung fu on steroids, I mean it really feels like the same tree kung fu's on. Nice but not my thing (politics, you understand, just don't want to be a "3-year old" when I really have to start taking charge to get out of the mess I'm in). Waiting for community philosophies to save you isn't exactly prudent thereabouts (just an opinion, not a region bashing).
    Goton-po, now there's the bee's knee's. Bokkens and one hit finishing manoeuvres (hit hard and run, tic). That's my take.
    I mean, I had no choice but to use what worked and only what immediately worked or experience extreme nastiness (the not going to survive kind).

    I say to myself, 'my devotions are koppojutsu, koshijutsu and happo hikenjutsu' and the philosophy I prefer (of available choices) would be goton-po. Hell, I don't even know how accurate I am in all this.

    Nevertheless, "my invented determination of goton-po as one of the available martial philosophies of those present" keeps me sharper when I can barely walk normally but still require to outperform most people at an instance. Or need to sleep somewhere vulnerable, without intellectually degenerating due to the need of knowing what's on the mind of small-animals in the vicinity (great informants, they are). Or have to live somewhere compromising and can't afford to jump around when confronted but must act definitely, purposefully and with finality at most every turn.
    I can't afford to let many confrontations get there. When they do my determination to get out of them again is like a fire. My eyes see goton-po, so to me, the varieties of origination within the many of the Bujinkan are likely to be as many at any rate.

    But like I started, the academic impression I had was the gogyo was somewhat rather directly introduced from China anyway. The entire early combat forms might've been more goton-po like in the way Shinto isn't exactly Taoism isn't exactly Buddhism but a priest is a priest.
    Just a thought.

    *covers head from expect spouts of abuse*

    I have no idea if I made any sense.
     
  7. Miran

    Miran Valued Member

    Let's see...Godai vs. Gogyo,ha?!
    Godai (the Five Greatones);Chi-Earth,Sui-water,Ka-fire,Fu-wind,Ku-sky,emptiness.
    It represents the elemental value of our emotional energy which channeled through our body produces corresponding actions embodied by the godai no kata (form of the Five Greatones):sanshin tsuki (chi-hardness,stability),sanshin omote shuto (sui-fluency,evading and counterattacking),sanshin ura shuto (ka-aguility,attacking through the attack),sanshin ****o tsuki (fu-floating,remaining out of reach),sanshin hoko no keri kaeshi (ku-improvization,applying kyojitsu).
    Sanshin can mean tricenter,three hearts,three bodies...The first body-your physical body,the second body-how you percieve yourself and the third body-how others percieve you.Sanshin is also used in a phrase of the Gyokko ryu school of kosshijutsu to determin a state of mind,meaning "heart/mind of a three years old",which implies considering yourself a childish beginner even when you reach the highest rank.
    Godai no kata is performed from the Shoshin no kamae (stance of the first body).
    Gogyo (Five manifestations);Do-soil,Sui-water,Ka-fire,Moku-wood and Kin-metal.
    It represents the everlasting cycles,corelations and interactions among natural forces in the environment (outside of a human body).It implies adopting yourself to the Nature in order to use its forces and elements to your advantage by its own laws.
    Gogyo no kata is performed from Ichimonji no kamae (straight-line stance) (Do,Sui,Ka) and Bobi no kamae (defensive posture) (Moku,Kin).
     

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  8. Miran

    Miran Valued Member

    Oh,and also godai no kata is performed more fluently with circular motions and gogyo no kata is performed more energic with direct,swift,straight-line movement.
     
  9. NZ Ninja

    NZ Ninja Live wire.

    Interesting thread,the sanshin I was taught was very aggresive and straight to the point,it is also slightly different to the sanshin I have read here.ie-
    Sui-water the movments in this kata are supposed to have the nature of water,flowing and smashing like a wave hitting the shore line.
    Next time your at the beach watch how the waves slowly build then smash onto the shore,go out and stand in the waves if you can ,and feel their power,so when someones throws a full force punch at your face your response and movment is fluid,you smash your fist into the attacking arms bicep still moving forward taking their balance at the same time as you smash your strike into his neck and he hits the floor like a wave just crashed in.
    I could go on to the others but I think you get the picture,the tiger is the only animal I know of in Bujinkan.-Shidan-gotoryu-koppojutsu-karate{Bone breaking ,musle tearing, tiger with empty hands}is a good way to discribe it.

    All the best
    Be stong be proud
     
  10. sshh

    sshh Not Talking Anymore

    Bringin' back the classics - good man!

    Isn't there supposedly three versions of sanshin no kata?

    gogyo, goiki, and goshin

    or something like that?
     
  11. Mufty

    Mufty New Member

    There are animals associated with all martial arts and combat sports :)
     
  12. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned



    Don't know of any in Systema. :D
     
  13. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Poodles????????
     
  14. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    Na too manly for us :D
     
  15. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    On a number of occasions I've heard Hatsumi sensei make comments along the line of,

    "I'm not trying to teach you to fight like some kind of animal. I'm trying to teach you to fight like human beings.

    Human beings put animals in cages."
     
  16. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned


    All the animals from the bujinkan come from the Walsall Dojo!!!
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    There is much talk on this thread about the Go Dai and it has been stated that the Godai is something that Stephen K Hayes invented. Maybe we can put this a little more into perspective in relation to what the Godai is and where it came from.

    Firstly the Godai is not something made up by Stephen K Hayes as I have heard so many times. The Godai as stated in Sanmyaku volume 1, number 3 in the editorial section starting on page 6 mentions that the Go dai is very old and goes back to the Upanishads.

    In the editorial section of Sanmyaku the word Go Dai is mentioned along with the elements Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku. Sanmyaku is of coursed endorsed by Hatsumi Sensei so one would hope its accurate.

    Stephen K Hayes may have interpreted the Go Dai in a way that westerners could understand, and this of course is the role of a good teacher. The Godai is so interwoven with Japanese Philosophy that unless one understands Japanese Philosophy in depth one would be lost. Therefore I believe that what Stephen K Hayes has done, provides us today with a powerful tool for understanding.

    I think its also worth pointing out that I have seen many sylabuses, including the Ten Chi Jin sylabus that use Stephen K hayes interpretation of the Go Dai.

    If we move on now to the Sanshin. One must remember that the Sanshin is actual a secret technique. I believe i'm right in saying that in the old days this would not be taught until one learnt all the other forms. Today of course we learn it as a basic way of learning to move the body, and its difficult to see how the elements actualy fit into movements, except on a fundamental level. However like all things in Japanese, especially where it relates to Budo, things are just not black and white. I believe that what we have learnt in the west in regard to Sanshin is really just the tip of the iceberg.

    In Ninpo as well this idea of San (Three) is raised again and again. Ten Chi Jin,
    Sansui, Koshi Kihon Sanpo etc etc.

    What some have said, in that Sanshin means like having the heart of a child could bear some truth. Certainly it may represent the returning to zero, or having a heart and movement as free as a child. In fact Hatsumi Sensei often says 'Go Play', like one should become like children. I don't mean in the actual sense that we loose all responsibility and start dribbling again, but that we look at the world like the mind of a child and move as naturally as a child.

    We should also remember that the schools of Gyokko Ryu from which this comes also use various Kuji in their defence patterns. For example Futen Goshin Gassho and these kuji relate to our emotions in the defence patterns. Sanshin could be related to this.

    Next let me turn to the comments made that some kata in Ninjutsu have animal names. This is certainly true. Hibari (Skylark), Roto (Striking down the wolf), etc. However naming techniques/kata after animals, plants or natural phenomena is not rare in Japanese martial traditions.

    Finally let me leave with some words from Sanmyaku

    "To explain the meaning of some words, there is no option but to explain Buddhist philosophy or Taoist Thoughts. However, if you put one foot wrong there is the danger of falling into the deformed "Intellectual type" or "Religious Type" of Bugei as Soke defined......"

    Gary Arthur
    WWW.toshindo.co.uk
     
  18. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Yes i would agree with this, although people give him ahard time now he, on many occasions gave us the art we learn, if he had not been around it still would have happened but i think we would be a few years behind and it may be a different story today.
     
  19. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Yes he did make it up. If you are talking about the way it is used by many ninjutsu practicioners, he did make it up. In Japanese society it is no more relevent to martial arts than Aesgardian myths about thunder gods have a relation to choosing to have an event on Thursday. (Thursday- Thor's day)


    I would say that it is the role of a good teacher to first show respect to their own teachers and try to teach what they do as faithfully as possible. I would also say that it is the role of a good teacher to have a deep knowledge of the subject matter before making major changes. Neither is the case with Steve Hayes and his creation of the godai many people know and the idea of 'fire stances' and the like.

    And the only thing I hear from people who have trained and lived in Japan like Ben Cole is that the best thing people can do with Steve's godai system is drop it as fast as possible. It is totally different from what Soke is teaching now. To think that you can gain insight into what Soke is doing is probably just the blinders of having something comfertable to fall back on. You can't see just how different Soke's art is from much less seasoned creations like Steve's stuff if you cling to incorrect world views like Steve's godai.
     
  20. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    I'm not going to slate Stephen on this, per se; however, for us here in California it was in 1986 that we realized something wasn't quite right.

    We had Soke here for a Tai Kai, along with nine of the Japanese shihan, and couldn't understand anything any of them were doing. Finally Soke just stopped and launched into a rant about how disappointed he was that American instructors were not properly preparing their students by teaching them correct fundamentals such as sanshin no kata and kihon happo.

    So we're all looking in puzzlement at each other and wondering, "Kihon wha' fo'? What is he on about, anyway?" We had never heard the terms before and had no idea what he was talking about.

    However, that event led to many personal relationships with various shihan and invitations to many of us to come and train in Japan. (My own first training trip over there was in January of '87, which I got the Army to pay for by getting myself assigned to a special-ops mission working with Japanese military counterintelligence).

    Anyhow, we very quickly realized how different things were in Japanese training versus here. We also quickly discovered what a constricting mental "cage" our previous "godai" model was and dropped it like a hot potato. At that time the only actual dojo in northern/central California was still the one in Stockton, and for a good while thereafter we'd have people drop in to visit and train with us who were still working with the godai model and never seen anything else. We tried to be polite and not laugh openly, but it was really difficult sometimes: They couldn't understand or reproduce anything we were doing -- but at least we could help them a bit, since we had come from the same background.

    They couldn't even try anything without knowing what the "elemental feeling" was "supposed" to be.

    You should "get the feeling" from watching and from having things done to you. The problem was that if it didn't fit neatly into the model -- and it generally didn't -- they couldn't understand it.
     

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