what is the difference between the gogyo and sanshin? I guess I always thought they were pretty much the same. thanks.
I guess a real quick answer would be Gogyo was more aggressive and direct and Sanshin more defensive and flowing.
Elements?!?!? Just put my penny worth in, As far as i am aware it was Hayes who gave them the elemental names, if you research the names of the sanshin it just gives five numbers and the whole thing is based on whats called the 3 heart form, which somewhere has something to do with 3 year olds, dont quote me on the last bit but Paul Richardson is my teacher and he has researched this extensively, i can copy the details if anyone wants it, by the way Conquistador, who is your teacher because you seem to have a good knowledge of the Bujinkan if you can write down your earlier comments, fools and loco's? ever heard of evolution, the whole ninpo thing evolved over 100's of years so why has it got to stop now, why cant Hatsumi add or take things away and who are we to question it? If you dont like the way the training is then find something else!
Sanshin , i allways thought that was hatsumi way of putting it , but if you could post the info on the 3 hearts stuff it would be greatly appreciated as id like to learn more of this, hey u learn sumin new every day. from bujinkan plymouth
Okay: People here are pretty much getting it half right. The gogyo no kata is the one most people are referring to when they say the sanshin no kata. It's the one that is was related to the elements by someone, who knows - Hayes, Hatsumi, whatever - and it's the one that's trained. Each step/element in it can be treated with infinite variations, hard soft evasive direct whatever within the movement, these variations are called henka. Sanshin no kata relates SPECIFICALLY to the following: the first 'heart' of the san (three) shin (heart) no kata ('s movement) <-- translated it means three heart's movement, you see?... anyway the first heart is learning the technique. The second heart is becoming comfortable with the technique and moving from thoughtfulness to thoughtlessness and spontaneity. The third heart is forgetting the technique and getting to pure sponaneity. This is used in reference to the gogyo no kata as often as it is because the gogyo is half of the basics of budo taijutsu. The other half is the kihon happo, or 'eight variations'. Both come from the Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu, one of the nine arts under the Bujinkan AND one of the six samurai ryu - it's not ninjutsu per se, because it isn't from the Togakure, Kumogakure, or Gyokushin Ryu's. On a very basic level, the only thing that might be considered to be from Togakure is the slight variation in the Gyokko Ryu gogyo no kata that, instead of maneuvering in a different stance after falling back fom shizen no kamae, there is a tendency to fall into or start from ichimonji no kamae, which is a togakure ryu kamae. Hope this helps! ~david mead evilempirebuyer@yahoo.com
Deshi: "People here are pretty much getting it half right." Yourself included. gogyo = five principles godai = five great (great manifestations of nature, i.e. the five elements) sanshin = 3 hearts and can mean many things. "the first heart is learning the technique. The second heart is becoming comfortable with the technique and moving from thoughtfulness to thoughtlessness and spontaneity. The third heart is forgetting the technique and getting to pure sponaneity." This is the process of shu-ha-ri (get it, use it, throw it away when you’re done with it). I’ve never heard of the sanshin having that meaning, but it’s as valid as anything else I’ve heard: 3-year-old child’s heart / body, mind, and spirit / etc. The sanshin kata are numbered with the names of the five elements, and the elements themselves (or the feelings those archtypes instill) may be used or considered while performing the kata as a matter of choice. The ninja of the past were influenced by buddhism, so there is likely an old connection between mikkyo / tendai / etc. and the gyokko ryu (which is a ninpo ryu by the way, not ninjutsu per se, but it was a main martial ryu of the iga ninja). That is the origin of using elements as a model to understand the interplay of different natural forces. I don’t believe that sensei Hayes made it all up himself. Considering the elemental manifestations while practicing the sanshin is a matter of choice. Stephen Hayes-sensei was very interested in mikkyo buddhism, so he made strong connections between the elements and the sanshin kata. It's just another idea for training as far as I'm concerned. But then, I'm no expert and I'm sure that I'm only half right as well.
Hayes didnt make the element stuff up just to take the ****, originally it was his transferance of information to the western world and it worked, it just that now many more people travel to Japan for teachings and learn more. If it was not for Hayes we would probably be decades behind where we are now so we must thank him for that and he is now doing the right thing in his mind, evolution of the art, he is keeping the ninja alive but not in the bujinkan and i think he is far more respected than people like Ashida Kim, Robert Bussey and freaks like that. Also have you ever noticed that each sanshin movement consists of three parts? Kamae - defend - strike, think about it, any connections? i will try and post the info i have over the next couple of days as it is quite large and i might have to do it in parts! Lets keep this thread going as its informative for people and not full of crap and flaming!
Well, thank you. I didn't mean to come off sounding arrogant but I did feel a rare urgency in stepping in for some reason, and I rushed through myself. _/(o <-bowing Thanks for those last two bits of Nihongo also, as the one was a new tranny finally seeming to get 'gyo' into my head and the other was all new.
Greg Chapman: "Also have you ever noticed that each sanshin movement consists of three parts? Kamae - defend - strike, think about it, any connections?" Ya' know, funny you mention that. I was training with Jack Hoban on Valentine's day (because bujinkan budo is the love of my life ), and we started with a quick run-through of sanshin principles, and that is something that he was talking about. It was about tactics vs. techniques, and made a simple point very clear - move so you don't get hit (kamae), move again so that you can counter-hit (defend), and then hit (strike). Hit-then-move, then hit again, and then move again . . . Something else that sanshin is good at teaching. > "Hayes didnt make the element stuff up ..., it just that now many more people travel to Japan for teachings and learn more. One of the things people are learning in Japan is that using the 'feelings of the elements' is a very small if not non-existant part of training sanshin for the most part. I think there is some connection, but not as big as Hayes sensei and his followers believe. Deshi: "Thanks for those last two bits of Nihongo also..." Dou itashi mashite! if you need a romaji-to-english translation, try running a word through Jeffery's: http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/tty/nocolor/S=48/fg=b/jis/dict
Hmmm, Its nice to get a response and it not be from a 14yr old kid who thinks he's sho kosugi! I have got to say (because my teacher does not use this site) that i do like the elements thought of things, it did help people in the beginning but just like what the sanshin is, its about growing and learning and you can do any technique using the elements, just change the the kamae, distance speed, intention etc, limitless if thats your bag!
Greg Chapman: "it's nice to get a response and it not be from a 14yr old kid who thinks he's sho kosugi!" But those responses are so entertaining, and even educational. "I have got to say (because my teacher does not use this site) ..." So are you saying that your teacher does not agree with / does not use the elemental-feelings approach? I don't think it is necessary, to teach the sanshin or anything else, but it is a very simple system to understand, and it does, at least, show that you can have many different approaches to (ways to deal with) similar common threats. Also, it has a traditional, ancient oriental flavor to it, that helps one understand the mind-set of some of the founders of the ninja arts. "...i do like the elements thought of things, it did help people in the beginning but just like what the sanshin is, its about growing and learning ..." I like them too, for what they're worth. If you find it useful, think about it and use it, if not, intellectualize it any other way you wish. It is about learning, and any model that has definite benefits should be at least superficially explored. " ... limitless ..." "That is my bag, baby!" - Austin Powers
Your right,my teacher cant stand them, been an historian he really researches everything, this included and made a big thing in class a few weeks ago when someone suggested the elements, I think Paul is more of a samurai in the bujinkan tending not to edge towards the ninja side due to the publicity it can generate!
Greg I wouldnt call Mr. Bussey a freak. He studied In Japan (under Hatsumi) at the same time as Steven Hayes. He taught Ninjutsu for awhile and moved on to his own progressive style of Self Defence Martial arts. He isnt running around with the Ninjutsu banner trying to increase students and teach something that isnt Bunjikan. If he ever decided to teach someone Ninjutsu again I believe that he would do it appropriatley and with respect to the art. Im sorry for making such an off topic post. But I dont believe that Mr. Bussey should be lumped into the Ashida Kim, Frank Dux category.
In '97 RBWI was cancelled. No more ninjutsu for Robert Bussey. Still, like Usagi said he is NOTHING like Ashida or Dux. Oh, and yes, ninjutsu does have animal bits in it. Bear, tiger, crane, and some other ones. Though ninjutsu is not totally based on animals like Chinese arts. It just borrows the moves and not much of the idea/attitude. 5 elements are used in meditation, fighting, strategy, kuji, and probably some other stuff. It basically just earth, water, fire, wind and void used in the essense of the meanings. For example, earth - fighting, you stand your ground and take whatever comes your way. Strategy - you watch and listen/learn.
Only in things like Gyokko been called the jeweled tiger school, we dont represent animals like kung fu does in any way, and dont anyone put down that hoko no kamae is the bear stance! As for the earth comment, i think i would stand my ground in any fight!
