Ninjutsu & Neijia

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by FistOfTrickery, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. FistOfTrickery

    FistOfTrickery New Member


    I'm new to martial arts but have started reading about various styles.

    One thing that struck me early on is that B.K. Frantzis and Stephen K. Hayes look remarkably similar, are of a similar age, and have both trained for decades. I wanted to get a Ninjutsu perspective on this, but I'm not allowed to post in that forum, so I thought I'd rack your brains on the issue...

    Of the two, who would perform better in a real life combat situation?

    I'm not trying to make this into a style vs style debate particularly, but I'd just be curious as to who has the goods in your opinion.
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    A straight up one on one unarmed combat fight?

  3. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I'm pretty sure it's the same person, they are both men, they both have a little hair, mostly gray/white, they both like posing in martial artsy photos and they both charge stupid amounts of money for training.

    However, I still think your question is relevant. As the saying goes, "the greatest battle is against oneself". In view of this, my money would be on Stephen K. Hayes because he is a stealthy sneaky Ninjer with probable invisibility powers and shurikens and such. He could easily hide in the shadows that Frantzis’ personality casts and ambush the unsuspecting Bruce when he is least aware. Nevertheless, we shouldn’t write off Brucy yet, I’m sure his veracious appetite would serve him well and he could eat the skinnier Ninjer if he could catch him. So really, I think someone needs to get Dana White on this and arrange an epic mental battle royale which will be played out in the countless imaginations of teenage boys across the universe.

    Now, it’s probably time to stop fantasizing about the impossible, improbable and irrelevant and go do some actual training :)
  4. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Well,anyone can knock anyone out on a given day. (Ancient boxing saying).

    That said,I'd lay $ down on Bruce at about 1,000,000 to one odds.That means if Bruce wins I get $1.

    And hey,Spirit-as your response showed at least this has more fun potential than the usual syle vs. style questions we get!
  5. FistOfTrickery

    FistOfTrickery New Member

    I was sort of looking for a more serious response - for me martial arts have to have some sort of real life application. Here are two Americans who have studied most of their lives in Asia and devoted themselves to fighting arts. I'm starting my journey, and like to look to elders as inspirations. So, in an unarmed confrontation between the two, who would you put your money on?
  6. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    I think the point that they were trying to make was not just one of levity, but that they call into question the effectiveness of what BOTH of these guys teach for real life self defence applications. If you are looking for how to fight and hopefully win. Take up boxing, judo, muay thai, BJJ, Kyokushin Karate. Anything that is simple straight forward and tests what it teaches agaist resisting opponents. Ninjutsu is not really known for this.
  7. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I have a list of 3 people I consider to be the best that I have trained with, out of karate, taekwondo, jujutsu, wing chun, bujinkan, tai chi, baguazhang, mma, boxing and a smattering of other people i‘ve trained with..

    In no particular order;
    Steve Rowe - Yang tai chi
    Alex Kozma - Yang tai chi & Cheng bagua
    Terry Lewing - Bujinkan ninjutsu

    I‘ve met others who have great skill and could kick my backsjde from here to next week, but these three, from my personal experience, each have an awesome skill level that you dont find from most martial artists.
  8. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I have no idea who this Bruce chap is or his background, and to be fair I don't know a lot about Hayes either, but I know that he did not spend most of his life in Asia, and I would challenge the term 'fighting arts'.

    I seriously doubt that Bruce is the best example of his art either, so you are picking a really odd 'battle'.

    You have a purpose for your question? Do you want to know which art is the best for you?
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Haaaaahahahahaha "fighting arts".

    Listen, I promise you that there are old masters out there wise in the arts of fighting and violence, and that the two guys you mentioned are definitely not them.

    Ninjutsu in itself is not really designed for unarmed combat. If I was to ask any REAL practitioner of Ninjutsu for a fight to the death, they would reply "no" and stab me in the back as I walked away. Or hit me first and THEN say "okay". :D
  10. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    I agree that Mr. Hayes has actually spent very little of his life in Asia studying.

    OP why are you asking?
  11. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Seriously Chad it only works if there are multiple attackers or weapons are involved :p
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I'd probably armbar you.
  13. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Bruce spent years living back and forth twixt US and Asia.Hayes didn't.Neither of which means anything as to skill level.Also,hypothetical musings on "who would win"-Bruce vs. Hayes,Paige vs. Cobb(baseball),Hogan vs. Woods (golf), don't mean anything either.

    I fail to understand where inspiration and theoretical matchups have much to do with each other.

    Which gets us into "fightin'" vs. SD systems.None of the above are SD systems.Not to imply at all that the training involved in them won't save your rear in a situation.
    Actually,even a lot of people who don't care for his,ummm..... "personality" acknowledge Bruce as being a high level practitioner. I know that experienced people who have studied with him concur.I knew about Bruce before he became well known.I think it's safe to say he has a bit of experience with violence outside the training hall.Not that that always means anything either.

    Well if we can sidestep some semantical game if not fighting arts what do you prefer? Cultural arts? Personally in conversation I don't use the word "arts" as relates to most martial systems except when I'm on MAP.

    Yeah,well go talk to people who knew Bruce when he was a young lad in his early 20s.I mean maybe he's not "wise in the ways of violence" but he's had a bit of experience in it.

    Not that that always means anything as regards to one's teaching.

    Hsing I at least had a real rep in the pre war tourneys.And at least at those tourneys they could use hand shots to the head.Unlike a well known system which has been known to brand itself as "the real Karate". So I don't know what the laugh is about if it's in regard to Bruce's CMAs.
  14. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I didn't know who Bruce Frantzis was, so I looked him up after reading this thread.
    [ame=""]Bruce Frantzis Fa Jin 2 - YouTube[/ame]
    I would rather see him fight the other Ninja master: Ashida Kim. Still I would really love to see either Hayes or Frantzis fight anyone, but I will not be holding my breath for that to ever happen.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    High level pracitioners are a dime a dozen though. I'm not knocking Bagua at all, I have friends who train with a grandmaster directly in this art and speak very highly of their experience.

    Also, I know nothing of this guy, and will take your word for it that many years ago he had a scrap or two - doesn't exactly make him top shelf fighting material to me though. If you want to get into the semantics and have a 'cultural deathmatch' between him and Hayes then sure, that would be equally fun to watch.
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah, he looks like teh deadly. :rolleyes:
  17. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Bruce is definately controversial..

    I like most of his writing, and I find this video (below) better than the 'fa jin' one posted above..

    [ame=""]Bruce Kumar Frantzis - 1987 Part 4 of 4 - YouTube[/ame]
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    The movement here looks good, there is an argument regarding seeing it 'in action' but for what he is showing it looks solid.
  19. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    He does seem to have an excellent store of qi in his lower dantian.
  20. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Not sure either of those are accurate claims, especially in the case of Hayes.




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