New to Kempo.

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by tw0scoops, Mar 9, 2006.

  1. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    As Rorion Gracie keeps saying in the "Gracie in Action video", 90% of fights go to the floor. However I would add 99.99% of fights start standing up. That said I have found that quite often if you do take an opponent to the floor and start pounding him, his mates will lose their bottle and don't always join in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2006
  2. Doc C.

    Doc C. Valued Member

    And he is wrong. Fights in this country do not go to the ground. They've been successful selling that for a long time and it simply isn't true in the American Culture. In fact in our modern American Street Culture everyone knows being on the ground is so dangerous, 2 people will actually fall down disengage, stand up and start all over agin rather than be on the ground. The consequences are just too great.

    In some South American Countries where a culture suggests when 2 guys get into it, everyone clears a space and 'watches the fight,' like in our old west movies, doesn't exist here. People will put a boot to the head of a guy on the ground when they don't know either one of the fighters.

    BJJ is great but is based on sport wrestling, and therefore they train to compete not fight. Are they tough, of course but so are NFL linebackers, but that don't make them great fighters just great competitors in good physical condition. After 30 + years of law enforcement on the street, the scenarios they paint I've never seen except outside the bars after closing between a couple of drunks who are too juiced to realize they're on the ground.
     
  3. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Thats interesting, I actually train with a couple local police in BJJ...they have said it's very valuable.
     
  4. MaxG

    MaxG Valued Member

    Anyone denying that a decent ground game is ESSENTIAL to self defense is deluding themselves. That being said Mario Sperry (one of the most successful Vale Tudo fighters in current times) has stated that BJJ in modern times is being diluted to a sport with too much emphasis on tournaments.

    I've been to all the BJJ schools in my area. Not one of them had a decent weapon defense program or a realistic answer to the question "How do you know they're not packing a knife or something when you hit the ground?"

    A true martial artist can and should blend stand up and ground and not do it to earn "points" but to effectively defend yourself in all situations.
     
  5. Doc C.

    Doc C. Valued Member

    Don't misunderstand me sir. I am not in anyway suggesting that ground skills in general aren't necessary, and I believe they are. However sport wrestling is not the answer to the problem, nor is it the panacea some would sell you with statements like, "All fights go to ther ground." The experiences of my fellow officers and myself, along with the FBI statistics debunk that perspective. Here in Los Angeles where I am based, I have contact with many of the martial art styles and schools, often when I am working. The story from one gentleman who quite the Gracies was centered around the answer to his question, "What if there is more than one guy?" The instructors answer was, "If there is more than one guy you're dead anyway." In short, they're in business and promote their business model of fighting and self defense only. The difference is, I would never tell someone not to learn to grapple, anymore than I would tell a guy who thinks he'll never be in deep water to not learn to swim.
     
  6. Les

    Les Valued Member


    Quite often isn't really going to cut it for me.

    If I find myself in a situation where I may be injured or even killed I don't want to rely on a strategy that works 'quite often'

    I have a student who holds a Brown Belt in Jui Jutsu and experience has taught me that if he gets me on the ground I'm in trouble.

    But experience has taught HIM that it's not going to be that easy. Obviously, when we 'play' we are using control, but his three years in Kenpo enable him to recognise that in reality he may not be there to grapple with me.

    Les
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2006
  7. Les

    Les Valued Member

    Of course it is!

    Police Officers are required to use 'Control & Restraint' to subdue a suspect, not slug it out with them.

    They have strict guidelines to work within, and don't want to be disciplined, demoted, fired, or have a member of the public sue them.

    The Police Officer in the course of his duties is a different situation to the one we are discussing.

    Les
     
  8. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    I guess there is a difference among people's view of BJJ skewed by where/how they train...the BJJ I have trained in is at an MMA gym, probably much different than BJJ taught in a sport/tournament training facility.
     
  9. Spyke

    Spyke New Member

    At my school we practise sparring against two opponents where you are only allowed to defend. Techniques we have learnt make taking it to the ground a useful alternative, if running away isn't.

    Taking one of multiple assaliants to the floor and controlling them can send an appropriate message to the rest of them. Remember if you have someone tapping out while controlling their arm (in training), pushing it further will break something (hopefuly not in training).

    Threaten them with busting their mates arm/wrist/elbow/shoulder/all of the above will certainly distract them long enough for you to either flee, or break something then flee. Of course it may just make them madder...

    The importance of cardio training again asserts itself.

    obviously this isn't the best course of action, you practise techniques with a view to them being useful in a self defense capacity, but nothing is fool-proof.

    this is just my opinion and will no doubt be ripped to shreds, just thought I'd chime in tho :cool:
     
  10. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    you never know what to expect when you get into a fight, so you need to be prepared. if there are more than one person attacking you, you have two options run or fight. if you are in a situation where you can not run, then your only option is to fight. in that case you have to decide what you are going to do. if you pick out one of the attackers and go after him and brake an arm or punch the guy in the throat, you just made things easier for yourself. are you going to be kicked and punched? of course you are. it's a fight and you have to do whatever it takes to survive. if you hurt one out of the group or two, then the others will realize it. they might go after you harder or they might reconsider. but what options do you really have when you are jumper? if you are able to hurt one or two, then you might get the chance to run.

    if you get into a fight with one person then there is no letting the guy tap out. you have to remember that the guy wanted to hurt you. why would you let him up unharmed? once again, break something then get away.

    when you get jumped it might be by a complete stranger or by someone you see on a regular basis. if you are attacked by someone you see on a regular basis and you hurt this person, then they're probably not going to mess with you anymore. if you are jumped the attacker needs to know that the trouble that he is getting himself into is not worth attacking you.
     
  11. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    If you are a family man, with a house, kids, etc, I would strongly suggest you do not bet that is the case...if you see them often they likely know your name, therefore your place of residence, therefore...well, things have the potential of going nowhere but downhill from there...there is a bigger picture to consider.

    I am not sure what type of people you grew up around kempojosh, but my experience tells me if it's someone you know, think carefully before inflicting serious harm beyond an ego or a few bruises.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2006
  12. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member




    you're right, you do have to consider everything. some people do need to be put in there place. others might want to take it to the extreme.

    it all depends on what you're willing/not willing to do to protect yourself and anyone else that you might need to protect.
     
  13. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    I'll agree with that, some people just need a good ass-kickin...just make sure it won't come back to haunt you or yours...sometimes it just ain't worth the trouble...
     

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