It was an info site for those asking. It's not that I'd not take a new student, of course I am not turning away. I'm just not seeking them. I am sorry if the site gives that impression. As for the instructors, well there are 2 other than me 3 senior students. so 1 for each location not 6. Though one may get that impression, I can see why. My wife has made enough changes to the site to suit, and the comment aboutt he elevated ranks, and the crappy little cut out is coming off this week. I'm not looking to nor will I call my school anything else. If someone wishes to delve into what we do more detailed they can send me an email. it would be much less productive on here. I have nothing to hide. As for running a business. I am all about business it's not a dirty word. Hey if I could do my paranormal research and teach and make that full time and do so well. I would. I run a successful business, so this is not my focus for money. My business is how I can do this and my other hobby. Give you an idea of my donations, 10 students. One pays 40 a mo, he's a retiree and has the cash, I have 13 yr old twins that take it they pay about 3 bucks a week. A body builder who is helping me lose some pounds in return for class and an ex cop who is a tatoo artist... he did my tatoo in exchange for 6 mo in class we do it in trade. SO my take is about 45 bucks a month. 3 of the students, are my daughters and wife so they don't pay period. It's not that I am opposed to those making money at this, I am not. It is just not something I am making money at or really care all that much to push the envelope to make money. We're a tight unit. Most of the student base has been with me for years. My newest for a year. We do Xmas parties and camping, wedding and all the like. It is relaxed, I'm not running a cult. We do lots of things that some may consider fringe like, mostly by interest of the student. If there is a field of study that I am not an expert at, I bring one in. IE Teppojutsu. My senior student is military, and I also have a tonne of hunters in the Northern dojo. So we use that resource in practice. I myself wouldn't BS on something to teach if I knew nothing about it, it wouldn't be comfortable doing so. There is lots I don't know. I am ranked highly largely because in the beginning the school was small and I was doing most of the work for my teacher. I had a lot of 1 on 1. My 2 seniors are far better than I am, far better. They had more time to work on it. I am not particularly skilled in my opinion, I just convey ideas well. I believe I am a good coach, maybe I use metaphors well. I continue to skill up, I attend where and what I can and seek the answers. Honest ramble.
What? There are a lot of people who don't view teaching and training in Martial arts a business. If I remember correctly, you are barely out of your teens, and you have never run a martial arts school before at all. I'm curious as to why you think you can write authoritatively about the topic above - seeing as you have precisely *zero* experience in the matter. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Seems you were wrong about this one too. Pattern? Also, since you are giving business "advice" - maybe your qualifications are appropriate? Maybe? -Daniel
Just wanted to point out a differentiation between viewing a martial arts organization as a business (IE monitoring P/L, tracking costs, expenses, and for the purpose of creating an encapsulated cost center) vs running it as a business for the purpose of single source income generation for somebody who is not independently wealthy. I encourage the first and tread cautiously with the second.
I agree. You have to be strong of mind, will and morals to run your own full time dojo. It's very tempting to cross over to the dark side of martial arts and become a McDojo, offering whatever just to get students in the door. As Craig says, you have to look at the big picture and view your school long term. What reputation will it have in ten years? This is what will keep its doors open then: reputation. Nothing more. Nothing less.
The best martial artist I have ever known ,gave up his job and opened a Dojo.He now teaches anybody anything He knows he should not ,but has to. I don't think its "morals"though.Just standards.
@ Hissatsu I'm 24...I'm not sure if you'd consider that "barely out of my teens". I've never run a martial arts school, but I do work for a marketing agency that provides consultation for businesses on market/consumer issues, like how to advertise, attract more customers etc. So when someone mentioned that he should've called his style "tactical taijutsu", my thoughts immediately went to..."but wait, "ninjutsu" would get his website more hits". It was just my first thought, seeing as I've been trained to think that way 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the past 4 years. But people here were immediately like...Money? More students? Expand the school? Oooh nooo, but that's contradicting the very essence of martial arts! Well, if Hatsumi didn't think that way, most of us wouldn't be here today, and the Bujinkan would just be a small school in the mountains with 5 students. And Hissatsu, I wasn't being authoritative, I wasn't telling anyone how to run a school. I was saying that if I had a school, I would be happy to see it grow. And I would not be happy if I was pouring all my money into it and not get enough students to cover the costs. Oh, and I do make a big distinction between running a school and running a private training group.
That certainly is an interesting theory. And you certainly wouldn't be the first person to have entertained that plus-size presumption. However, as blanket statements go, it's full of holes and won't keep anyone warm during the night. I don't think anyone is really so naive as to believe that money is some sort of contradiction to martial art training. Yet it is naive to suggest that money is a motivating factor to someone in Hatsumi sensei's position. I have ranted about this before, so I won't waste a whole lot of band width on it now. But it simply isn't true. It would be closer to the truth to say that you might not be training today had Hatsumi sensei not decided to be as generous as he was in apportioning his martial art teachings to various westerners, most notoriously Stephen K. Hayes. And Hayes can realistically carry only so much of the blame himself, as he admitted to reading about ninja in the pages of a James Bond novel when he was still in high school. Hatsumi sensei is a very, very intelligent man. I trust that, if he had wanted to, "we" would have known about his martial arts without the assistance of Hayes mucking about and publishing books to instantly impress the average teenager with. There could have easily been chains of Hatsumi sensei dojo nestled in virtually every strip mall in America before you were even born. Why I and some other people may seem less than thrilled about mixing money and martial art training is comparable to mixing money and music; we sincerely love these arts and continue to acknowledge them as a gift to be appreciated and respected....as opposed to a toy to be played with and sold to anyone who comes along. My problem with Dave, if I can attempt to steer this thing back on course, is that he is just another hack who is deliberately misleading people via the way he presents himself on his web site. I don't really care how much money may be trading hands. That isn't the point. If he is claiming on his web site that he teaches this and actually does not, it's called false advertising. And I really don't care if you or he or anyone else is hiding behind cynicism by suggesting "buyer beware"....it's not acceptable, regardless of what "higher social expectation" that he professes to have of himself. - Mark Spada
Aww gee shucks Mark, I'm blushing. And just when in another thread you said I'd be surprised how many people respected me. I don't know where I get my self defendedness (sic) from. Jeez I was so sincere in my explanation and now I'd deliberately misleading people. Thanks for your input.
Dave, if we could act like adults here for a second.... You exhibit behavior that we've all seen from other so-called "indies" ( Garth for example ): you habitually draw attention to yourself and your dojo by showing off your web site or posting videos of your training....and then you react with defensive belligerence when anyone has the nerve to critically assess what you have presented, question you about it, or not give you a pat on the back and tell you "good job". Gary did the same thing not too long ago. It's comparable to a little kid who trashes his room when he's not getting the attention he feels he deserves. It could also be a cry for help: "Please validate what I'm doing because I'm not secure enough in myself to keep it to myself." I don't know. I'm not a psychologist. I do know that you don't need anyone's approval. If you want to engage in a civilized discourse about what you've drawn attention to, fine. But so far you haven't shown any inclination to doing that. Although at times I can be a contrarian, I'm not a shin kicker. Neither am I a pacifistic hugger; I can express disapproval or even disdain while still maintaining a healthy respect for you, Dave. So my suggestion to you is that if you are not prepared to openly face questions and criticisms, then leave your ninjer school off the boards. - Mark Spada
Oddly, I don't have a problem with Dave. I'll explain briefly: The vast majority of people *IN* the BJK worldwide have little to no experience / exposure to "ninjutsu" - what the word really means. This means that if you were to contrast a standard BJK dojo 20 miles from Dave, against Dave, you would find that the final tally of "ninjutsu" in a given week would be a tie at 0 - 0. So either side claiming to be more ninja-ish seems, well, silly - unless you are one of the VERY rare people who really has a decent amount of exposure into the other side of the BJK. My suspicion is that those people can be counted on a couple of hands, and nearly all of them live in Japan. Maybe an exception or two, but that should be pretty accurate. The problem, as I see it, is when you ride the edge of the *Organizations* popularity, without being in the org. This isn't about the term "ninjutsu", however. If someone were to turn up to Dave's class, and walk away with the impression he was in a real BJK dojo instead of Dave's Ninja Class - then there would be an issue. I don't get the sense that any of Dave's students are under the illusion that they are in a BJK dojo, though. Also, as I see it, you *should* change things a bit if you decide to leave the org and go your own way. Maybe you are worse for the experience, maybe you are a martial genius and are better for the experience. Maybe you had a lousy instructor, and going it alone is a better option. If your class is 99% BJK, just called "Ted's Ninja Camp" - that is problematic as well, from my viewpoint. George, like him or not, has changed his class enough to be clear of that line as well. Whether you want to learn his style or not, is your prerogative, but again, I don't get the sense that his students are being "tricked" into thinking they are in a 2000 year old Ninja lineage, despite the "ninjutsu" term being potentially misused. I don't know. I would be a lot more upset about things if I felt we had a really *solid* grasp on the ninja thing and the outliers were sullying our reputation. It just doesn't seem to be the case, though, and our rep is something that we need to worry more about internally than externally. That whole plank in your own eye thing... Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm interested in counter points - so fire away. -Daniel
I basically agree with and am on the same page as all of the above. My problem with Dave, as I've detailed previously, has to do with him claiming on his web site to teach things such as "counter intelligence". Okay....maybe he can provide a case for that being somehow relevant, but so far he hasn't told me where he received any certification to teach any aspects of what he is calling counter intelligence. This is putting aside the question of why any civilian would need to be possessed of any skills relating to counter intelligence in the first place....unless it is to engage in an activity that any facet of the government would regard as illegal. Which would fly in the face of Dave proclaiming to require a "higher level of social obligation" or whatever of his students. It's great that he doesn't want to associate with kids who don't maintain a high grade point average or who talk back to mommy....but how would teaching kids about "disguise and concealment" be conducive to countering bad social programming? Why is he at least claiming to teach the use of explosives? Does anyone think that's really a good idea? I ask Dave these questions, as anyone would. So far all I hear is the crickets chirping. I don't really care about the whole ninjutsu debate, at least not as much as I may have made out in the past. Again, as I've detailed, there are just way too many contradictions on Dave's web site to leave me with any solid idea of what he is actually teaching. All the terms and phrases that he throws around on that poorly written site simply leaves me with too much lingering ambiguity to instill any trust in him as a teacher. - Mark Spada
Dave, Mark is 100 percent correct and what he is pointing out needs to be said. You saw what happened/happens to Garth. Do you expect to be treated any differently? When he posted a clip of himself, a lot of the board pointed out all the flaws and lack of skill it contained. When he talks about his many years holding a membership card, people point out he never got to the level where he was a full instructor in any of the organizations he jumped in between and question his credentials to teach others. So, do you think you should get treated any differently? And it is not just because you are an indie and the Bujinkan members point these things out due to some sort of agenda. I have seen far worse treatment of folks like Chris Carbarno and Simeon Yeo from Bujinkan members. As a whole, your work here is pretty damn good. When I report people who are obviously just here to cause trouble, you seem to be the one leading the charge to ban them. But in most situations, people try to reduce the amount of situations where they have to judge things while there is a possible conflict of interests that include them. Politicians can no longer hold stock they know of, judges have to excuse themselves from cases, etc. So in situations like this, can't you try to turn things over to other moderators like Frodolicious or Aegis so that you can't unconsciously sabotage your integrity here? Again, you saw what has happened here to others in your situation and saw how their qualifications, skills and everything else was laid out and talked about freely. You really don't have an excuse for thinking that you would be treated any differently.
Mark my issue where I would have said there was not respect, was that I was called a hack. That entails I am trying to screw people. It's personal. I have always respected what you say. I don't call you names. I am all fine with your issue that you don't think I am qualified. I think I have been pretty forthright with my feeling of my own skills and agreeable to much of what has been said. I'm not some Mountainous or whatever. I'm just me, and I am proud of what I have nothing will change that. I have no nefarious goal. Some of the wording well, yes certainly can be viewed that way. As for the crickets I already stated I wasn't getting into that long winded discussion here. For that you'd just have to see for yourself, and you're not so no worry. If someone reads that and comes to the school and doesn't experience what they want, they leave. I've explained that because the school offers it, doesn't always mean it's me showing it either. I had said if I don't know it I will bring in the talent. If you don't like my site, my school or whatever. That is fine. I appreciate it. I would say that there are many other schools legit included that you could do far worse in. I'm not being childish as being entailed. I was being tongue in cheek. I know who I am, and I have seen as many times that you have thanked my posts, or that I have been one of the few to actually reply to some of your questions such as pressure testing. So I do take what you say seriously even if it has a somewhat bi polar approach at times. I can respect that, I'm much the same way. Maybe one day we can train together and get along. I come to BC on a semi regular basis. I'd welcome you in to train, would you do the same?
Well said, well I don't hide I put what I did out there. For other reasons but I did. And rightly if I was to be critiqued I was. Sure enough. I figure one could find fault in any video. I'm not modding this thread Don. Frodo can step in anytime. I'm sorry I didn't realize I was hurting my integrity for 2 reasons. I am not tossing barbs or calling names being verbally nasty and for the matter I didn't figure I had too much integrity by anyone when it came to this topic anyway. So no I doubt I am losing too much face. Again, you are also someone who I respect greatly here for your opinion.
Here's another thought or two.... The subtext here concerns the lack of honesty Dave expresses. I have been fortunate to have met a lot of professional people from different walks of life. Generally speaking, they usually express themselves in the same way: honestly. An abstract conversation with any of these people would go something like this: "Please allow me to extend the courtesy of being completely honest and up front with you. Here's what I know and understand: A, B, and C. I feel confident in telling you that I have a firm grasp of A, B, and C. I can not only tell you who taught me A, B, and C, I can also explain in minute detail the entire process that I went through in order to be certified and knowledgeable about A, B, and C. I can also detail my experiences in understanding A, B, and C. I won't claim to be able to teach you G, R, and X, for example, because that isn't my particular area of expertise. And although I may know a lot of stuff about G, R, and X, I really don't know and understand enough about them to teach them to you. I certainly don't possess the accredation that says I can teach them to you. But I can point you in the direction of someone who can. See that guy over there? He is a certified expert in G, R, and X. He's amazing at teaching them as well. I enjoy learning a lot from him and I think that you will, too. I hope that you don't mind me being so forthcoming; maybe that isn't good business. But I care less about that and more about ensuring that you get the highest quality of what it is you are looking for. If I can assist you with it personally, then I will be glad to do so. If I can't, I'll do my best to help you find someone who can." - Mark Spada
Ah... that makes more sense. Still, I just went back and re-read his entire site... and my impression of it is... meh. Seems to be a pretty standard, a bit over the top / sensational, website. Not crazy, no levitation, etc - just a bit of resume inflation (which honestly exists... pretty much... everywhere). My gut tells me that 3 mins of conversation in person with Dave would clear up any misconceptions I might have as a potential student. I realize that he kinda brings the magnifying glass on himself, but there isn't anything that is crazy out of bounds on his site from what I saw. Hence my ... meh. My gut also tells me, for what it is worth, that if there was a high ranking / high skilled BJK / GBK / JNK dojocho in close proximity who felt as though they were being slighted by his website, there is a good chance Dave would change it a bit to help differentiate. I could be wrong, but that is how he seems to operate from what little I know about him. I don't get what the fuss is about. -Daniel PS. We cross posted. I agree with your abstract conversation as well. My gut tells me Dave is probably pretty close to the same in person. Websites tend to be a bit... extravagant in this area - across the board... PPS. Pick a number between 1 and 50.
No way, dude. You did that to me the other week on facebook. I'm not falling for that again. :cry: :hat: - Mark spada
Ok. I used a Random Number Generator and rolled a 24. I went to google.com - and picked the 24th link under "Bujinkan Dojo" - The site it brought up was http://www.ninjutsudojo.com/ - which is a page that doesn't really house a current Dojo. So I followed his top link for BJK training: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mza/ninpo.html - [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]University Of Michigan Bujinkan[/FONT] Look through that site and see what you can find that is questionable / truth-stretchy. -Daniel PS. How did I know you would reply after I started writing this post... LOL
