I don't know what buki-waza but I do have the martial experience to be able to watch two people using a nunchucks and judge which one is the more skilled. You will no doubt disagree and laugh at my opinion. But if you were able to ever watch those two videos objectively you'd agree with me.
OK, did that. One is extremely dextrous and co-ordinated, with excellent timing and balance - the other will have all this and also understand what it is to engage in combat. I think I know which one I would rather not fight.
Honestly, there is know way to watch someone to freestyle type techniques and assume that you know what he would look like when he switches to practical self defense mode (unless he's so bad at the freestyle that you can see he has no coordination or skill)
I understand what you're saying - but in this case, one is demonstrating martial ability and the other is not. As this is a martial arts forum, I don't understand why we entertain such notions of freestyle 'chucks'. They are nothing short of dance moves. Why don't we talk more about a marching bands' Drum Major carrying a mace? They originate from weapons just like the freestyle day-glo glitter-chucks you know...
Many people say the same things about Katas, Compliant Training, and everything other than training followed up by all out sparring with minimal rules and pads.
I thought that was what I said (?)... though I edited my post to make that clearer a minute or two after I hit "Post", so you may have read my post before I fixed it. I don't do MA (yet), and the school my kids go to only does compliant training, from what I've seen so far... Katas, Compliant Training, etc. accompanied by reasonably hard Sparring is what I hope to find for them. Eventually for myself too, if I commit to doing MA.
Without wishing to side track the thread from "chucks", lets consider the two video's below: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BMkp5tlu0E&feature=related"]YouTube - Greatest Samurai Form[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDGI2EwRmJU"]YouTube - Sato sensei (iaido, iaijutsu)[/ame] Now which practitioner in each video on the surface would you say is able to demonstrate the greater control over the weapon, arguable the XMA guy, which looks the most impressive, I dare say most would say the XMA guy, which looks uber cool, if not a bit cheerleader like, the XMA guy? Speed, level of control, dexterity, fluidity, could all easily, especially to those who don't study JSA would all go to the XMA guy Which person is performing techniques based in reality, with genuine control over the weapon they weild and which would I least like to face one on one, well there's only one winner there, and it ain't the XMA guy.
Yet you have no idea of the guy's level of distance control, timing, entry. So we can't judge how well he'd interact against a live opponent. You also have to take into account that what he is doing are simply exercises in implement control and co-ordination. Now the other example of course is using a weapon that has been integrated into the rest of his training, training that at its core has a martial purpose. So on the one hand we have a guy performing a gymnastic endeavour and on the other we have someone demonstrating a codified combative system. Your assessment of him being better at using the weapon is based on what? It is simply your opinion based on what you see and your idea of what the weapon is supposed to look like from a combative point of view. It's not based on any knowledge of the application of the weapon in martial systems that have it in their curriculum. You don't appear to have taken into account a whole host of other variables and conditions. You've simply gone "he looks good". And yes I know you can just smack someone round the head with them.
People "in the know" said Norman Rockwell was a lousy artist... But that didn't stop people from enjoying what he did. Art Critic Admits to Liking Rockwell
It's not about enjoyment as such. I don't think anyone would deny that people enjoy such things or that there is anything wrong with that. The discussion is more about recognising such exercises as what they are and what they are not.
How much of your judgment of who is better at it is based on credentials rather than just video - in other words, if a guy with no martial arts training made a point of learning those exact same moves to near perfection, would you then mistakenly assume he can defend himself with the weapon if you saw him perform in a video? If a person learns all of the moves, does that really prepare him for combat?
You're assuming that I would consider perfection of movement to be simply copying said movement and for the movement to be the only component, it is not. If someone with no training trained in those waza correctly then they would logically end up being a trained individual. You'll note my previous post mention the waza and training being part of a codified system so I'm not simply on about physical movement there's a lot more than that. It's not about the gentleman's rank it's about training methodology and purpose.
As a bit of a nonsequitur, the most irksome thing about this performance (and, frankly, it was ALL irksome) is him crossing himself before the performance. Like God doesn't have better things to do than safeguard some ninny who insists on hurling a sword up in the air and standing under it. I get when actual fighters do it. They're genuinely putting themselves in harm's way. But this guy has just reduced genuflection to cheap stage antics. Bad form sir. Bad form. (Double entendre unintended, but cheerfully left alone.)
In the case of Art Critics and Norman Rockwell, it was elitism and snobbery which blinded them to how good of an artist he was, and how much of what they claimed to value was actually in his art, but they missed it because the elevation angle of their noses kept them from seeing the paintings accurately. Also, they didn't like his "Cheerleader Like" subject matter. In this thread, what I am seeing, is people who think that only the traditional forms will work in a fight situation. I would say, Dan Inosanto & Bruce Lee are a couple of examples of people who put some flash into their technique, but would have been able to use them as weapons when needed. Nunchaku are not a weapon I would choose if I needed to defend myself. I would expect a simple pair of sticks or a staff would be more efficient. Besides, who carries around Nunchuks as a self defense weapon? I can appreciate what the older guy in that video is doing, but it looks pretty easy to learn to do what he is doing. The freestyle techniques look far less practical and useful for defense, but also look a lot harder to perfect. Each has a purpose - so why put one of them down as "Lowbrow" and useless drivel - why not appreciate it for what it is, rather than denigrate it for what it isn't? From what I see, if either of the two practitioners has trained with them for self defense, then he would be a formidable opponent. But neither video looks like the person is really engaging in self defense. Doing Katas, no matter how well, and how closely based upon self defense, is not the same as real combat. Neither video shows elements like spacing, adaptation, and other facets relative to genuine unpredictability of a real battle.
I partially agree... it probably is something he does when there's an audience. But it may be his way of honoring his God, and something he does very much akin to bowing when one enters and leaves a Dojo, or other gestures of honor. It's not mine to judge him publicly - God knows his heart, not you or me. It's like when a football player points to the sky after a touchdown... you may not understand it as such, but the meaning of the gesture is generally "I'm not the one who should be applauded - it is God who gives me the ability to play well" And yes, some will do it to appear pious. For one man it is to deflect attention away from himself, for the other it is to draw attention. Same gesture, different meaning. What else is there in a 50 second video? If I can exactly replicate every movement exactly as he does (which I could learn in a matter of months), in a 50 second video, I would look the same in a 50 second video. Would that make you less anxious have to defend against me with a set of Nunchuks? But somehow the video is supposed to show how well he could use them in a fight? I maintain that neither the freestyle video nor the proper style video shows fighting capability, it just shows one guy doing flashy techniques, and the other doing traditional techniques. And I don't think either one is better than the other - I can appreciate both for what they are.
