New Kuk Sool Association?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Hyeongsa, Nov 10, 2009.

  1. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    guk seon is a powerful title. from my understanding (see: first 20 episodes of queen seon deok), the title is bestowed to the most talented soldier by his liege. maybe i am wrong. but it begs a question.

    as owners of a business, you can call yourself whatever you want, but wouldn't it be more ethical to call yourself what you are? the korean president bestowed the title of 'kuksa' to a select few people. in that way, i really respect master suh for not using another title. chong jae nim is what you are if you run a federation (won, hyeop hoe, yeon maeng, etc).
     
  2. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    I think the title you're looking for is Do Ju Nim (道主님). Keeper of the way...Equivalent to the title of Doshu in Aikido...
     
  3. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    Yeah, Kim Woo Tak uses Do Ju Nim...
     
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    FWIW, so does Ji Han Jae.



    Not to detract from IHS, but the story I heard was that particular arts were chosen by the ROK gov't. after the end of the korean war, in an attempt to help people reconnect to a virtually lost national identity (which was thoroughly thrashed from 40+ years of foreign rule by Japan). Calligraphy, Dance, a bunch of different but ethnically korean Musical Instruments, and oh yes, Martial Arts were included in this list of artistic endeavors (and yes, there may be others, but please realize that this is just what I can recall off the top of my head). The "kuksa" title handed out to people in these various fields wasn't particularly researched for each individual that received such a prestigious title, rather (according to my understanding) it was more of a combination of first-come-first-served and who had a convincing historical background (which also may not have been double-checked for authenticity and truthfulness).

    Just the same, I never met any korean from any MA (of any rank ) that didn't use the title when speaking face to face with IHS, and none of them seem to balk at the fact that he uses it, either.
     
  5. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I allowed the edit function to lapse on my previous post, but it occurred to me that I neglected to mention a minor aspect about the "kuksa" title I mentioned there. All of the various KukSas were required to travel about Korea (and I don't recall the exact schedule but it was several times annually for a specified number of years) conducting demonstrations and/or hosting teaching sessions or seminars, all of which may or may not have been free to the public (I don't recall that detail either). If failing to uphold this requirement, the right to strip this prestigious title from each recipient was reserved by the ROK gov't.

    Of course we know that conducting such promotional venues was part of the agenda for KSW whether it was required for IHS to retain the "kuksa" title or not, so it was a *no-brainer* for him to follow through with this requirement (which he obviously did).
     
  6. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Its funny that the authenticity of the title "Kuk Sa Nym" is mentioned. When promoting his Kuk Sul Do Federation in Europe, Austin Lim uses the title Kuk Sa Nym for himself. LOL.
     
  7. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    The Hwa Rang Do people use Kuk Sa for their 8th and 9th Dans... http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrddan.htm
     
  8. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    The difference is that the HRD folks plainly say the KukSaNym title is from the HRD World HQs. I don't know if they make any claims to all 8th and 9th dahns in HRD as being sanctioned by the Korean govt.

    The KSD folks say that Austin Lim's KukSaNym title does not come from the KSD Federation, rather...from the Korean govt itself. LOL.
     
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Gee, why did you have to go and single out SGLim as a (possible) liar, VM?

    While I've known that boy to spin some yarns in the past that were obvious tall tales, all while looking you straight in the eye as if what he was saying was the honest-to-god truth, I'm going to refrain from currently saying anything negative about him since I haven't seen nor talked to the man in a coon's age. :D
     
  10. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    So where did the term "kuk sa" originate, anyway?

    My understanding is that it was a special appointment by the king in olden times. In fact, the kuksa might simply have been an instructor for the children of the king, not a military advisor or anything to do with MA. But that's the connection that IHS uses when explaining the color scheme for his wangsa dobok (king-teacher uniform). The fairly recent use of the term "kuksa" by the ROK gov't, where it was applied to leaders in several various and sundry arts and which I explained in posts #324 & #325, doesn't speak to any specific MA connection either. Therefore I personally don't see anyone claiming this title, whether legitimate or not, as pointing to anything that a serious MAist should be concerned about.

    If some folks are so swayed by the tangled web of stories espoused by a diminutive man in a gold karate suit, such to the point that they want to use the same title or the same uniform, or whatever, that he uses to promote his MA organization, then that's a problem they need to deal with. As for me, I can't help but chuckle at the antics of such knuckleheads.
     
  11. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    there is a difference between bending the truth and lying. alas, some people never change. but hey, people either lie to protect someone they love or because they are scared of the truth. in this case, maybe he loves himself and is scared of... maybe the title guksa-nom (nom being old time slang for 'boy') is more appropriate.

    a simple check on how much of the syllabus a person knows will determine who is what.
     
  12. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    My korean isn't all that great, but do you mean namja; 남자 (but minus the "ja")? The literal meaning of namja is "man" or "male" but if not mistaken, it is used in the vernacular sense along the same lines as "man," "dude," or "boy" in english.



    I wholly concur. The only caveat that comes to mind is when someone is so old and decrepit that they can barely walk, let alone demonstrate any MA skills. :p
     
  13. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i guess its relative... i mean, if someone is developmentally or physically disabled an instructor would be an ass to not promote them, given they try their hardest. BUT, many of the people we speak of here are neither.
     
  14. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Sounds like me! ;)
     
  15. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Damn! You beat me to it Pugil!:bang:
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I guess "better late than never", yes? For me this part of the discussion is waaaay long overdue.

    So far there has been talk about legal this-and-that and high-toned talk about loyalty and what-not. Seems that there has been little focus on what benefit all of this has for the art, its direction in the future and for the lowly GUEPs who are years away from the issues under discussion here.

    or------

    Was the assumption that whatever is good for the leader's agenda is automatically good for everyone else? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  17. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    It takes us old guys a few days to respond lol.
     
  18. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    First of all, I'd like to say "THANKS" to all the old-timers who obviously got my joke (Pugil, KIWEST, Saja). I'll bet we aren't nearly as decrepit as having any difficulty in walking, but we probably do notice the difference in how we feel in general, from when we faced a younger-looking man in the mirror each morning. :D


    And now, back to on-topic discussion...
    To answer your question, Bruce, I think it best to paraphrase Kipling...

    Geup is Geup and Dahn is Dahn, and never the twain shall meet.

    But I will say that clearing up legal issues would have an ultimate impact on the guppies. It may just be my opinion, but I feel fairly convinced that it might be a bit disconcerting if suddenly the art you were studying had to be renamed to something else because a lawsuit about what terms it can and can't use was decided in favor of the opposing party. The name a particular MA goes by, the uniforms the practitioners wear, and other such mundane aspects make up the IDENTITY which people who are new to studying such a MA will grow to cherish. This is why we see so many people who wish to continue practicing the DRAJJ/SPG hybrid known as "kuk-sool" wanting to wear a "general's uniform" that only slightly resembles the ancient battle armor worn by the proponents of re-enactment groups (such as the muye24ki), and IMO actually displays more similarities to the costumes worn by Las Vegas showgirls (referring to the *glittery* metallic threads). I understand that a precedent has been set, but avoiding such stuff is where the rest of the argument has a better shot WRT any "goodwill theft" nonsense. Better to let the *traditions* established by WKSA stay with that organization and to concentrate on developing the advancement of effective MA skills using the techniques and methods we were taught and worked so diligently to perfect (as humanly possible).

    I also feel as if transparency about the components which comprise the curriculum should be more evident. No need to shroud the truth behind made-up fairy tales of hwarang warriors or hermit monks who developed clandestine training methods. Even if the physical techniques aren't wholly korean, as long as the philosophical musings which are embraced by the practitioners are derived from korean thought, that makes the MA in question a KMA (IMO, anyway).

    Hopefully this clarifies my stance on the matter. :cool:
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I enjoyed your whole post, UNK, but I especially liked the last paragraph about transparency. I have more respect for a person who state that he mixed two parts this to one part that than to shroud his rational in unsubstantiated tales.

    And.... there may be an advantage.

    Since the surviability of a species is directly related to its adaptation to conditions, were the KS people willing to have a little variance, it may enhance their surviability in the long run and decrease the need for political maneuvers such as the ones to wich people have taken such strong exception.

    Perhaps an example is in order and to accomplsih this I will take the mention of KS as a hybred of DRAJJ and SPK. For the purists please know I take this only for the purpose of illustration.

    From life experience I know that DRAJJ has a greater emphasis on h2h and much less on weapons. In comparison, SPK has one 18th of their material on h2h and 17/18thes on weapons. Right off the bat it might be good for the art to be able to accommodate both the romantics who train in weapons for some "higher purpose" and the young scrappers who hope to prove themselves in tournaments against their sparring partners. In either case, though, it would be well if the h2h and the weapons material are both attributed to the correct sources, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  20. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    This is probably off topic, but since the issue of weapons training and hand to hand has been raised I wil post here, and if told so to do, maybe set up a different thread.

    I have been thinking about weapons in KS and the whole odea of forms and techniques in KS.

    Whatever the source of the material we train in under KSW (and to be honest I am loving the training I am having now so thoroughly enjoy what I am being taught or what I am learning irrespective of origin) I am thinking about the whole MA.

    WRT the hand to hand and the weapons is there anything within KS open hand techniques and hand to hand, that corresponds to the weapons training. I ask because I know for a fact that within Aikido, and in particular Iwama Ryu Aikido the Aikijutso (or open hand techniques) and the bukiwaza (or weapons skills) direcly correlate, and it was often said that to learn Aikijutso one should master the Bukiwaza, and the learn the Bukiwaze one should master the Aikijutso (sorry about spellings if wrong wrt Aikijutso and Bukiwaza). And, indeed, there is a definate correlation between the way one moves in the open handed aikido techniques and the sword cutting movements of bukiwaza.

    Can the same be said for KS? It is an area that I am looking at from what I have learned so far (which honesly isn't much when you think about it having not long attained JKN!)

    Cheers All,

    Quozl
     

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