With all the talk of people leaving the WKSA, and the concern of not having another identical or very similar (albeit less expensive/business oriented/constrictive) Kuk Sool Association to fall back to that would honor their current rank and give them a little more freedom to run their school how they see fit (i.e., grappling, advertise however you want, and allow the school owner/students to attend seminars of different styles). However, they would have the comfort of being in a big Kuk Sool Association that would hold tournaments, seminars, and Instructor Training. The idea for this new Association would be to try and rally all former WKSA Masters/School owners into this new Association, and settle on one flag, one uniform, one crest, and one art. The new Association would have to agree on rules, regulations, syllabus, and so on. So, with that in mind, what would all of you like to see out of this Association? Would you like one Grand Master, or a council of Masters that would vote on the best decision for everyone? Love to hear your thoughts and remember: no one put down anyone! ALL thoughts and ideas are welcome if they help the growth of this dream! Kam Si Ham Ni Da!!!
My thoughts, To start something new from scratch is most difficult and I wouldn’t want to be part of that. In general, we all train and practice Kuk Sool and want to keep it that way just not under the WKSA. Those that left and those that plan on leaving could, keep it plain and simple, do what others did, name the school KUK SOOL OF………… Try to form a renegade group/org. in which all and only former WKSA members can join. Take the WON off the uniform, change the fist to a new logo ( a simple fist & ???) or something completely different since it will be a new org. maybe add Ho Kuk Mu Ye and that should do. Those that already scream “you are stealing Kuk Sa Nim’s art”, pipe down. We didn’t ask for this franchise crap. Besides there are still these “minor details” on what belongs to whom and who came up with what etc. As far as I see it, Kuk Sool belongs to the practitioner. Make this one thing top priority; once you left the WON you will be able to invite other arts/styles, go to Seminars hosted by other arts/styles etc. but….. keep Kuk Sool and your teachings pure, don’t mix stuff up. What I mean by that is the classes in which you teach Kuk Sool should only focus on that. If you have (as an example) TKD or Karate guys in that class don’t let them interfere by wanting to “show” what they would do in certain situations. They can have their own class do their own thing at their own time. With this there would be quality control over Kuk Sool. If you want to, add a MMA class in which imo lower belt KS students should not be allowed to participate Then sign up with the KSGA, it will be most certainly useful. If there are several “new” Kuk Sool schools in a State, let’s say (just as an example) 3 in California, 5 in Texas, 2 in Kentucky etc. the highest rank is ‘running the show” by testing the lower ranks. NO SELF PROMOTING!!! Learn your stuff like you’re supposed to, then go to next higher rank and test. The schools could have ‘in State Tournaments’ amongst each other and once or twice a year there could be a National Tournament. At that time the higher ranks or everybody from 1st degree and up could meet the day before, have a big pow wow where they train together, once again the highest rank at the time giving some sort of Seminar. The highest ranks could have their personal meeting by discussing / working out certain issues that might arise (for example) if a school owner in that new org. does not abide by certain rules and there really should be rules like, no mix & match training, no misconduct (J. Lurker) etc. that Instructor should be “let go”. Now to many very important, Certificates. This is where the NKMAA comes into the picture. With all of that there are a million little details and it would take a while to work this out. That should do it for now. Unjee
Hi, Unjee. Nice post. What I want to know is your take (and everyone else's) on HOW LONG it would/should take to move up in rank. WKSA requires 2 years to learn the material and 2 years to undergo a barrage of tests to advance in dahn rank. Would you consider it sufficient if the time frame to begin testing was whenever the person had learned the material, even if it was only one year instead of two? And why not have fewer tests, say three instead of 10? Just wondering... That would make a rather small pool to work from, don't you think? Not that I'm against following such criteria, just that adhering to it might limit the new organization at first. But I see your point WRT getting everyone on the same page, enforcing quality control standards, etc.
It seems we are on the same page KJN. Not sure if anyone else likes the idea, from the lack of responses in the KSGA thread. What do you think of my ideas? Isn't it worth disscussing, or am I talking to myself again?
Please, by all means let us know of your ideas. anything that could get a new association off the ground. like i said, i'd love to hear it!
Unjeesunsu - OK yes I agree keep KS pure but having experiencing a recent seminar from Ollie Batts on Savate and Escrima and seen how these very different MAs can contribute so much to existing recognised KS techniques - freedom is my cry. So permission to learn and grow outside of the KS strictures would be my main aim. Having said that recognised progression rate would be important. It seems to me that even within WKSA there are vast differences in how students are allowed to progress. The most important thing in any "professional" organisation is quality control and consistency. Most importantly for me is maintaining family identity. The "brothers-in-arms" philosophy is in my option a big part of the MA attraction - yes we beat each other up but at the end of the day we all respect each others Art - and probably would be happy to buy each other a pint.
it isn't as impposible as everyone makes it out to be. each Chief Master (NKMAA, UMSF, KSD, KSK, KSC, etc.) would be the leading voice of this new association. now, this council would decide on one uniform, one name (KSGA, United Kuk Sool Association, World Ho Kuk Mu Yea, etc.), and decide on a crest. rules, regulations, and quality control would also need to be decided, as well as one unifed syllabus (your prior experience could be put into the techniques, as long as it doesn't DRASTICALLY change the technique). also, advertisement would be for the individual school owner to decide on (karate for kids, family martial arts, we kick butt, etc.). the other masters/school owners that join up would be important as well, but will continue on the way they are now, just under a different association. the ones that have been running an organization would be the voice of experience. we would register this new loose association under either the World KIDO Federation (so we could get our dahn ranking) and become the new and better kuk sool association. due to the freedom of this new association, you could rent out the school to TKD, Jui Jitsu or anyting else you want and even attend what ever seminars you want. the only people that would have a problem with this would be people that think of themselves as all powerful, or those that have a problem trying to form something that might take a little effort. i never said it would be easy: but it would be worth it.
by the way, if we ALL decide on one leader (more as an elder that can help us with his vast amount of experience) then that would be okay too. but we would ALL agree on this. if anyone can't tell, this won't be a dictatorship, but a Kuk Sool Democracy.
Well Duelist, I have pretty much spelled it out in the KSGA thread posts #559,584,596 and 599 if you want to look back. Here's the process for starting a new org. 1. Task Force 2. Mission Statement 3. Election 4. Member Drive 5. Quality control document My suggestion is not to limit the new org on KS but all TKMA's to start with. because if only KS there would be a limited number of people that would be accessable. A broader range of people is needed to get enough interest to make it viable. As I said before it could be set up as a clearinghouse for schools of any affiliation. To be able to proove that the quality of instruction at each individual location is maintained there would be minimum standards required. The task force could be made up of many diverse individuals who are of like mind (meaning that they want this type of org) For example Bruce Sims, Ollie Batts, Unknown KJN, The Duelist, Unjee, Vegas M. and whomever else wants to get involved. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't even know if this is a good idea. It is a viable alternative to any existing orgs. And to be honest I think it would not be compitition for existing org as much as a resource for them as well. It could be bigger than anything in existance at this time! Or...Maybe I've had too many kicks to the head.
I would like a CO-OP where all schools get a vote, everyone profits, elected officers. standardised core correculum transferable from school to school.
All schools getting a vote is good, no one can guarantee that everyone is going to make a profit. That is up to each school owners ability and business savvy. However information/business model can be part of the overall plan to provide the tools necessary to conceivably run a profitable school. As far as a standard curriculum is concerned I don't know if all parties would be able to agree on that. It seems as if that is part of the reason people are leaving WKSA. It definitely could be on the table for discussion. Add KSstudent to the task force!
VEGASMICHELLE: i will PM all of it to you when i've had the last few people look it over, and have finished changing/modifing it (after viewing everyones concerns on this thread). since you seem to love to nit pick (no offense, its a good thing), maybe you could tell me what should/could be done better before i present it to everyone and make an @$$ out of my self! ^^ OBEWAN: my goal is to get together the former Kuk Sool masters and school owners, not the rest of the entire TKMA community! that would be for Hanminjok or NKMAA to do. what the goal should be, IMO, is to get the former Kuk Soolers together, and show them that there is a gentler (on the wallet and mind ^^) path to go to. that we will honor the current sylabus as is. we will honor your CURRENT rank. i dont' care if we're the biggest and best MA group in the world. that road leads to what the WKSA wants: to be the biggest and the best. i just want all of us unified and to show the rest in the WKSA that are scared to leave that there IS an alternative. that they can become part of what the WKSA USE to be: a family. i know it must be silly, and maybe childish, but thats what we're trying to do: get rid of the buisness and power, and stick with the old roots of unity and family. KS STUDENT: i have actually put that in my plan! lol "all schools get a vote, everyone profits, elected officers. standardised core correculum transferable from school to school." the only problem i have with that is the everyone profits. i'm not sure what you mean by that. could you explain that bit? thanks!
I understand, good luck with that. Lets all go in reverse. Not my bag, but I wish you well. That's why I'm staying with WKSA. I might as well stay in the pan as jump into the fire. WKSA seems to have a plan. I would rather follow someone down a path than scurry willy nilly into the forest. Before you say you have a plan Duelist, WKSA already has what your spewing the difference is that they are successful and progressive. But I truly hope you prove me wrong for the sake of those who want what you want. Thanks,
well, i'm happy for you, but at the same time sorry to hear that. i understand how it would seem like going in reverse. all i'm saying is we go back 10 years, to where it was exillerating and there was room to breath. if this new association gets big, then thats wonderful! i just want to steer clear from the buisness aspect of it (franchise and overcharging). true, the WKSA is quite succesful. but at what cost? i do agree with you that walking on the given path is so much easier than going down a road that is less traveled (no robert frost pun intended), but in this case, i strongly believe it would be worth going down the tougher road. the thing is, we don't lose a thing in seperating from the WON! we keep our schools, we have more freedom to explore and train how we want, and we still promote. yes, WKSA has been part of our lives for so long, but its like an abusive marriage: isn't it time to move on? however, since this plan hasn't yet been put into full on swing, i have to ask: do you believe this new kuk sool association should be for ALL TKMA, encompassing the true meaning of Kuk Sool (national arts) or just ex-WKSA? you probably already stated it, but perhaps an explanation behind your thinking...?
There doesn't need to be yet another Kuk Sool organisation. As Obe quite rightly says, anyone who decides to leave the WKSA will do so for their own reasons, and most will be reluctant to 'jump into someone else's fire'. Once the shackles of the WKSA have been cast aside, people will relish the freedom that brings - the freedom to breath, and make their own way 'through the forest', to forge their own paths and, once through it, to make their own way to the top of the mountain. Those people who want to stay in touch with one another, irrespective of whether they are running their own show or not, can simply do so by affiliating to the KSGA (for example). Anyone who wants to make closer ties with others and feel part of a bigger family, so to speak, could also join groups such as the NKMAA. So, Hyeongsa, with respect, my suggestion to you is to forget all about your grand scheme, get on with your training and STFU about it please!!!
UnknownKJN, To answer your question and this is just my personal opinion, in general I have a problem with children under 10 years of age receiving a black belt, (plenty of reasons, not necessary to get into it here) and I would have a problem with 25 year old 4th Degrees. Testing timeline should be kept, as is, for 1st & 2nd Degree. After that it could be up to the Instructor how quickly his/her student could promote to the next level. The problem with that is that often the Instructors ego gets in the way and their need to show off how good their students are and how many black belts they’ve “produced”. I think after 2nd Degree 2 years training with quarterly testing for 3rd Degree, after 3rd Degree 3 years training with quarterly testing for 4th Degree and so on would be appropriate. Now, there are indeed cases where a student is absolutely committed, trains hard, shows up often, helps teaching/instructing, and truly learns the “meaning” of every form & technique and has a true interest in the Korean culture. That student could be endorsed by the Instructor and to prevent an unjustified promotion he/she/they could test in front of a select group of higher ranks and show their skills and overall knowledge. (woof, long answer) it should in part also answer DoJe’s question. DoJe, Leaving the WON will allow people to basically do whatever they want to do. When I said, keep Kuk Sool “pure” it means that there need to be classes where ONLY KUK SOOL is being taught and nothing else and these students will progress under that system. The school owner can have separate classes for students, 1st Degree and up only imo, where students can have MMA training in which they can use their KS knowledge and mix it up with whatever is in existence on this planet. To tell you a quick story; many years ago I was challenged by a Jujitsu fighter, a friend of one of the students, (cocky SOB). With a “you couldn’t do anything against me if I do this bla bla move on you”, I allowed him to “proof it”. It lasted less than 3 minutes and he realized that Jujitsu is NOT all that. I, on the other hand realized that one of his “moves” almost took me out and Kuk Sool has a few things to be desired when it comes to ground fighting. I made it a point to learn a few things since then. Sorry, story is off topic but, YES, go ahead have a “MMA class” in which you use your knowledge of Kuk Sool and integrate Savate and Escrima or whatever for your personal training and grow OUTSIDE the KS constriction. unknownKJN, quote: “That would make a rather small pool to work from, don't you think?” Obewan, quote: “My suggestion is not to limit the new org on KS but all TKMA's to start with because if only KS there would be a limited number of people that would be accessible. A broader range of people is needed to get enough interest to make it viable.” WHY NOT only focus only on renegade KSW members? WHY shoot so high right away and focus on everything and everybody TKMA out there? It would be a HUGE undertaking and might be doomed from the beginning, wanting to START OUT like that. KEEP IT SIMPLE. FOCUS ON OUR KS BROTHERS AND SISTERS FIRST, AND THEN GO ON TO HIGHER THINGS IF HUUUUGE IS WHAT YOU NEED. WHO CARES WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE THINKS. After all that’s the reason why many don’t want to deal with the WKSA anymore because the focus has drifted away from the art. Unjee
