new kempo group

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by kempojosh, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    if you actually read what was claimed (rather than just knee jerkingly going "he used the word aikido but isn't a grandmaster aikidoka" ) you'll see that he never claimed his style was aikido based, or even that he is an aikidoka (which i believe he is, but i could be mistaken) All he says is

    Surely anyone who has any experiance of training in a martial art and that runs a martial arts club can lay claim to using the building blocks of those arts? no? why not?

    His style is (as far as i have seen) about as far from the soft floweyness i imagine aikido to be (although i personally have literally no experiance of aikido) Kempo Kids style of kempo is pretty brutal and heavily pressure point / chi oriented.

    I'm not quite seeing why you object to him using the word aikido in the context he did? He's not claiming his style is aikido based so why the beef?
  2. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    Whenever you drop a name of another style into a description of an art you are teaching, the students that don’t have direct experience in that art make a link to it. They say to themselves, oh that’s what Aikido / jujutsu / karate / whatever is about. As you say, his art does not resemble Aikido; however because he has linked his art with Aikido among others, any of his students will quite reasonably draw a link between the two. What people are concerned about is 1. How students with little knowledge of martial arts will view those other arts he has named. 2. Are these students getting what they expect? Do they come because they think they will be learning jujutsu or Aikido techniques?

    I have nothing against the guy. I am just trying to explain the reason behind the questions. They are not based on malice for KK, but concern for their arts and the potential students that may or may not be getting what they are looking for. The martial arts community is littered with dodgy schools and teachers making all sorts of claims. Their individual actions have an effect on the public’s perception of us all. So far KK has managed to appear like so many other proven martial arts charlatans. What people have done is offer him the opportunity to demonstrate he is not, by advising him of their concerns and giving him the opportunity to respond.

    Anyone can claim anything. Personally I wouldn’t claim to incorporate elements of arts I have little experience in because I know how much people with little experience in my art lack understanding of it, just as I would with Aikido or Karate.
  3. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    Right people are goning to flame me up again. My web page has not beenupdated in yonks due to my web designers personal life. The aikido was only studied by my instructor David Walsh, and not by me. If you read futher into the quote

    No where does it say "traditional" anywhere. If people dont like my past then to be honest i am with you on that. Through political BS I split from the group DAMAFI. It was possibly the best thing I ever did. Why did I still keep the title renshi? because thats what my students and their parents knew me as.

    I hope this clears some of the confusion up.

  4. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    So if I were a new comer to your art I wouldn't have the "right" :rolleyes: to question someones lineage or make enquires about the system. Sorry that's a really dodgy response!

    If someone posts on an interent forum about thier org or qualifications then they should expect people to question their claims.

    If there is nothing to hide if there are no real problems then there shouldn't be difficulty in answering questions about a system and getting uptight about such questions doesn't show things in a good light.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  5. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    As I've said ability isn't in question with these sort of things. It's all down to integrity, I'm not saying you don't have any and again don't think I'm having a dig.

    What I'm trying to get across is that if someone makes a claim to being a certain rank and have certain elements from Arts in their system then people are going to want to know the details and background.

    Fighting ability, teaching ability even being a nice guy doesn't come in to it.

    Thank you for the invite I may just take you up on that at some point. I’m always up for something new.
  6. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Let em put this to you:

    You start training with someone who claims to be an teacher of er I don’t know lets say Ninjutsu.

    You train for years and end up being a competent fighter and are still under the impression you are learning Ninjutsu. You instructor can handle himself you get on well and each month you pay your money and continue to learn.

    Then you meet someone from the Bujinkan and go train. Now what you see is totally different to your art. Which gets you curious so you go to an Genbukan Dojo and what you see although having maybe a slightly different flavour to the Bujinkan still looks the same type of thing where as what you’ve been studying has no resemblance to these two legitimate orgs.

    So off you go back to your instructor and start asking him why you do things so different and you start questioning him on his background in a bit more detail.
    It turns out that this guy can’t provide any proof that he has had training in Ninjutsu and you then discover that what you’ve been doing is just MMA with a few Weapons thrown into the mix. The Ninjutsu was just used as a marketing tool.

    So how do you feel? You’ve pretty much just spent the last couple of years being misled into thinking you’re studying something you’re not.
    Yes you can fight, yes you’ve had a good time BUT you’ve been lied to and the man you’ve had trust in turns out to be a fraud!

    So as you can see fighting ability doesn’t come in to it, going to train with some one wont prove legitimacy in some areas especially if you are lacking in knowledge about the art which a new guy will be.

    It’s not a witch hunt and my god it’s easier over here than on E-Budo. It all comes down to this; if you make certain claims then people are going to ask you about them because it is a sad fact of life that there are a load of frauds out there and when people are evasive and give ambiguous answers to questions then it will set alarm bells off.

    If you are on the level then there should be no problem answering any questions about any claims you make and giving those answers shouldn’t go over pages and pages.

    a) You are stating that you cannot trace lineage you are being upfront from the off. KK said a few things and then gave answers that came across as a bit dodgy. Which generated further questions.

    b) Nope it’s a good forum but if you’re going to come here and say you do x,y and z then people will and IMO are entitled to question you on it.

    You’re right we don’t know eachother from adam neither does someone new to MA!

    So how is the newbie supposed to know what’s legit? Well that’s easy people have to back up what they say. That way they are providing people with the info to make an informed decision.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  7. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Exactly it's a hobby to you. To some people it's a lot more. E-budo for example has many who have moved to Japan to study their art. My instructor travels twice a year there, I'm making my first trip this year and would like to aim to get over there once a year to study.

    Above you said you didn't check out your instructor? How do you know what you are learning is legit?

    Yes it is easy to have a pop at someone, but that's not what is going on here.

    You have to keep in mind that MA is about self protection. This is how the majority of them are "marketed". It's a pretty serious subject not wishing to be dramatic but if you're learning something that is supposed to be teaching you to protect yourself you need to know that it will, as one day you're safety could be on the line and if it's dodgy then all it's left you with is a false sense of security.

    If you’re just after a good time whilst getting fit then you may as well do boxercise!

    People scoff at lineage but if a person is saying they are teaching an System with elements of another art but the don’t have any proper experience in the art then I’m sorry they are misleading you, simple as that, you are being lied to.

    So why is it people think that's ok just so long as you are having a good time?

    Would you have an Electrician round to do you're plumbing? Even if that Electrician has a mate who's a plumber, who he's watched working? Of course you wouldn't.
  8. stormronin

    stormronin New Member

    If we ran a generic poll I think most people would agree that martial arts to them is a hobby

    i didn't until i saw it working. at the end of the day no matter which style you chose nothing can stop a 20 stone thug with the intent to do you damage. even if you are aware it is going to happen.

    im new to these boards but thats what it seems like to me

    evn these traditional styles that ebudo people are so precious about,must have their floors. no style is the best and not every technique is going to work.i am pretty sure people will agree with me on that point

    or step, or swimming, but at the end of the day fitness and jitsu are not the same thing

    In in opinion, the site said the basic techniques, you have read into that that every person is a nth dan in a certain art
    its a hobby, if you didnt have a good time would you still be training?
  9. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Then run one! It can be done as part of a thread. My point was mainly aimed at some members of the forum and used E-budo as an example.

    When you have people who move to the place of origin of their art and go to the expense of relocating, finding a job and learning the language then I’m sorry that’s a bit more than a hobby.

    And what did you base your assessment on? Did you have previous MA experience?
    As my main point is how does a newbie know what they are getting?

    If they know nothing of MA and they go somewhere that claims that the system being taught has elements of and art i.e. Aikido or Wing Chun then how are they supposed to tell if it does or not? Or if the instructor is telling the truth?

    They have nothing to use as a guide. The same goes on here how can they tell that individuals info is reliable if said individuals can’t or wont back up things they have claimed.

    Then to be honest you’re not reading what both I and Colin Linz have said. This isn’t about having a dig it’s about verifying what someone has said and when the answers to our questions seem to be evasive or ambiguous then it’s going to raise further concerns.

    No one has mentioned anything about there being flaws or not. To be blunt that has nothing to do with the discussion.

    I’ll repeat again this whole “debate” is about integrity not how effective a system is or the fighting prowess of an individual.

    It’s about giving a misleading front or as someone else said false advertising. As that is what you are doing if you are “selling” an art as having components of something which you have little or no experience.

    Now in most other walks of life this isn’t acceptable as it can dupe Joe public so why should it be acceptable here?

    How long have you being doing MA and can I ask what you do as so far you’ve just said Jitsu . :confused:

    To be able to integrate principles and concepts from an art into a new system then you must have a solid understanding of those principles. Now in Aikido, aswell as in the one of the arts I study, Shodan is just seen as the first step it means you have a basic grasp i.e. you don’t fall over when you try to walk.

    Now surely to put elements of one art into a new system you should have more than a basic grasp of the art? I’m sure KK said he didn’t study Aikido and the chap he mentioned wasn’t a founder of the org.

    So going on that can someone please tell me how the heck Aikido can be part of the system?

    The system may share principles, hell one of the arts I do, Systema, shares principles with Aikido but that doesn’t mean I can start up a system and claim it has Aikido in it’s base.

    Just because people have a good time doesn’t make it a hobby to them.

    Just because you see it as a hobby, and there’s nothing wrong with that people train for different reasons, doesn’t mean that everyone else should. You have to understand that to some people these arts are very important. For one they are a way of transmitting cultural and historical information and it’s annoying when you see all the frauds out there bastardizing what you may have dedicated your life to just so they can earn money or stroke their ego.

    EDIT: After a quick search I found this:

    Has a few interesting points for both views.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  10. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Storm Ronin

    "In in opinion, the site said the basic techniques, you have read into that that every person is a nth dan in a certain art"

    Generally in most martial arts a higher Dan rank will have a greater understanding of the basic techniques than a lower Dan. As you train your core skills ("Basics") will improve. There is no way that a person with no formal aikido training or rank could grasp the basic principles to a level sufficient to enable them to successfully incorporate it into a new style. All you will get is a new style with a smattering of badly executed or weak Aikido techniques. This is the same for most Martial arts.

    "evn these traditional styles that ebudo people are so precious about,must have their floors. no style is the best and not every technique is going to work.i am pretty sure people will agree with me on that point"

    Yeah Aikido has a major flaw. If you don't study it properly it won't work!!!

    "at the end of the day no matter which style you chose nothing can stop a 20 stone thug with the intent to do you damage. even if you are aware it is going to happen. "

    This depends upon the attacker and the person being attacked. To be honest if an untrained "20 stone thug" gets caught with a clean shot from a 10 stone guy who can punch his weight he will go down. Also no matter how big you are your unlikely to be able to stop a decent competitive judo dan grade throwing you to the floor. I retract this if you are an 8 stone woman.

    Kempo Kid - Ben Ledwick
    How did the TJF person grade you to 4th Dan. I thought their system only had 3 dan ranks.
  11. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    Bomber - Neil Harrison
    Yes but within those ranks are sub ranks, acting primary, secondry ect.

  12. stormronin

    stormronin New Member

    ok i believe i have found the problem crux of the issue. you were right i had only scan read the documents :rolleyes: from what the post says above, they offer a fellowship within the kempo arts, nothing about teaching or anything else along those lines, they seem a bit like a network of clubs more than an association. could be why they use the name society :) . now the problem is people have tried to cross reference the bks with kks web page. this is understandable because both are interlinked. it does look like his past lineage (for what it is worth) maybe iffy,but does that stop him being a good instructor? in his chosen art. i do agree the way his own web page is set out does make it look at first glance that he teaches karate, aikido and jujitsu. but reading it over (just to make sure) it uses basic elements of these styles. i do think it needs changing to make it easier to read, but this is a martial arts forum not a web design forum.

    guys why are you pointing out each others real name?
  13. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    all kempo organizations coming together!!!!!

    First, we would have to have all grandmasters come together on stage, shake hands with all other grandmasters, then start with a "masters seminar", in which Tatum, mattera, and villari, and the others could teach some kempo punch,club, and grab defense techniques, and maybe some forms.The second thing would have to be they all discuss how it went afterwards, by getting feedback from the students as well.I know, personally, the masters at USSD are awesome martial artists, As well as Mr. tatum, and Villari as well.
    So, as the person posted, please, "they would have to get rid of all their egos first,"
    hey, maybe that is the case, but if they held a seminar in california, it would be HUGE!!!!!
    I am all for the reuniting personally.
    enough rambling from me,
    i am just a jerk, sorry guys and gals.
  14. stormronin

    stormronin New Member

    are we back ontopic ?:D
  15. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    thanks storm!!!

    just trying to be humble, and through words of wisdom, voice my opinion, thats all.
  16. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member


    egos huh? so much for the humble attitude that people are suppose to have.

    if the egos could not be cast aside, would it be a reasonable idea to have the grandmasters duke it out to see who would be in charge of such a group? like it was in the old days?
  17. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    Duke it out??

    Well, as master's once have said, what do they have to prove.
    also, any given day, one can beat the other, etc... does that make sense?
    Anyhoo, i think they should, but i heard that Vallarri and Mattera are not on good grounds with eachother.Mr. Tatum, is humble to everyone.He respects all martial artists equally.
    Sorry, just trying to voice some truths.
    I'll shut up now.
  18. Joe V.

    Joe V. Valued Member

    Have you ever heard of "The Gathering of Eagles" in Las Vegas? It was a historic gathering of many Kenpo/Kempo lineage GMs. I did not hear of any mass brawls by arrogant GMs. Why would the GMs want to "duke it out"? I miss your point. Are you suggesting there should be a "Master of the Kenpo/Kempo Universe" :confused: What good could that possibly do for the Arts?
  19. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    the comment was in reference to someone else's comment. i never heard of "the Gathering of Eagles". It sounds like it would be a good event. the "duking it out" comment, i'm not trying to start a tournament between th gms.
  20. fthl


    I would think most people do martial arts as they want something that works, the history and cultural stuff comes in much later.

    I'd wager that the interest goes -

    learn how not to get beaten up (or how to beat up folk)
    get fit
    have a hobby
    meet (and sleep with) other people

    For kids insert a bit of discipline as well. Maybe cheap baby sitter as well...Traditional culture and stuff would fall way down the list I reckon.

    I think there are two extremes in MA -

    1.Koyru geeks

    2.MMA nutters

    everyone fits in between those two extremes. I think certain message boards have a leaning to one side or the other and this influences the type of post and the response. obsession on either side of the specturm is not healthy, in my opinion. E-budo is not friendly, it is the nature of the board and to an outsider many of the posts do come accross somewhat strangely. Just my opinion. If we are talking about the perception of MA to outsiders then I would opinion that some of these boards do more harm than an instructor with a shaky lineage.

Share This Page