new kempo group

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by kempojosh, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    Hi les :D
    Some people arn't happy unless they are stirring the proverbial. But there you go. Isn't there a proverb about empty vessels and noise? anyway

    Cheers for the support those who know me :D and for the rest of you come and train with me and then down to the pub and get to know me, then you can have a go all you like :D

    Blissfully happy as always :D

  2. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    If you do go and train with KK, don't go to the pub with him least, not if you value your sanity :rolleyes:

    But if you can, i strongly suggest training with him.
  3. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I don’t think Tripitaka follows you to all those forums. He is just a very sad and lonely ex kenshi with nothing better to do than visit martial arts forums, he would be so much happier back in the dojo instead.

    I do need to ask one question though. What the hell were you thinking posting something like that on ebudo. They are, after all very focused on Japanese systems of budo and have a history of examining and questioning peoples claims. Now I have no idea of your ability or knowledge, but when you claim to be the head of an art or hold a specific Japanese title, while identifying a number of Japanese systems of budo as foundations for your style you must surely expect very senior exponents of these arts to ask questions.
  4. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    It was a really bad phrased question. What I meant to say is should we keep techniques hidden for our own personal use. However I didn't, but thatnkyou rather than question me or my style you questioned my question which I agree was complete $#!€
    To be honest i din't know a great deal about ebudo. But it does seem full of people who like to start flame wars. I wont be posting there again.
  5. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Not really if you're legit and can backup what you say then you shouldn't have any trouble over on e-budo.

    Sorry but I can't see how the following quote can mean that you're really asking if you should keep techniques hidden for personal use, it's doesn't have any resemblance to such a question.

    Personally I think you've been caught out over there on your claims and you are now moaning about it saying people are flamers over there.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2006
  6. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    Erm, while i agree KK's question on E-budo was stupid and his explaination is somewhat lacking, what "claims" has he been caught out over..that he's a fourth dan or that he helped set up the British Kempo Society?
  7. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Ok maybe this should carry on over on e-budo to save cross posting :D

    I think one of them was who awarded the 4th Dan? As it just appeared to be other members of his org, giving the impression of a mutual appreciation type thing going on. I think it set alarm bells off and got the e-budoka thinking of Sokeship councils :D

    Another that the system claims to have elements of Aikido in:

    but he doesn’t show sufficient lineage to back that up. He mentions someone ,who has passed on, reached Shodan but this person doesn’t seem to be one of the founding members of his org and I can’t remember seeing him listing his rank in Aikido, now surely if you’re are incorporating elements of an art into a new system then you should hold a decent rank in those arts?
  8. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Actually our problem was that his Kempo 4th Dan came from the British Kempo Society that he founded I quote:

    "I was graded by a panel grading of the BKS"

    Kempo Kids website states:

    "The founding members are; Renshi Ben Ledwick (3rd Dan) – Atemi Kempo Ju Jitsu (Bedford Inner Circle Academy of Martial Arts) - Bedford. Sensei Paul King (1st Dan) – Goshin Ryu Kempo Jujitsu – Peterborough. Sensei Warren Palmer (2nd Dan) – Monxton Ryu Kyu Kempo – Andover. "

    So he was graded to 4th Dan by a First and Second Dan.

    Our second issue with Mr Ledwick was that he refers to himself as Renshi. This title was bestowed upon him as a 3rd Dan by a Soke Dokey Group DAMAFI.

    Our third issue was that per his club website:



    It was then revealed that the only Aikido input came from a 1st Dan Grand Master????

    I'm sure Mr Ledwick is a decent guy and maybe even a reasonable artist, however, with credentials like his it is best to stay away from EBudo. They will flame grill you. If he is a decent Instructor I hope this doesn't put people off training with him, however, I hope Ebudo reduces the number of crazy unsubstantiated claims of Rank, Title and History that are out there.
  9. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Wow Spooky you beat me to it!! :)
  10. Moony

    Moony Angry Womble

    Like Goo i've trained with KK, at the kempo club he runs, at my old aiuchi club back home and at mixed events organised by him and ones organised by myself for planet jitsu. He's not to bad really and with him what you see is what you get.

    I also know several other members of BKS kempo including Paul King and i know for a fact that if they didn't think kk was worth a 4th dan he wouldn't have got it. BKS is more of a mutual support thing for independant clubs, not anyones appreciation society.

    I'd recommend that anyone that wants to check out his credentials trains with him if they can. Just bear in mind that you might be kkorupted (he has a rep on PJ). I generally like the stuff i learn when i get to train with him, when my girlie fear of getting my joints mangled doesn't come into play....

  11. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    That's great to hear. I don't think anyone was out to "get" him or doubts his ability. It's just that when questioned on certain things over on e-budo the answers he gave where er a bit questionable, which got the alarm bells ringing and keep in mind that there are some very knowledgeable people over there, it's not just some forum to bash people.

    There have been many people on there who have made claims and not been able to substantiate them and then usually fall back on others saying "well he’s a good MAist" which could well be the case but again if you are claiming Aikido or anyother art as being an influence on your org or art, to such an extent that you’ve incorporated elements of that art in to you new one, then really you should be able to show some verifiable experience in it.

    As for the 4th Dan can someone explain to me how a 1st Dan i.e. Mr King:

    Can promote someone to 4th?

    Also going to train with someone wont necessarily give you the chance to check out credentials. Imagine a good fighter, for example a decent Boxer, sets up a club and people go train with him and see he's someone you wouldn't want to cross but if that same guy is making claims of being part of a long lost Ninpo Ryu or something then his ability to fight doesn't really come into it does it? He needs to be able to substantiate his claim.

    Or for example imagine someone new to MA! They go in and learn how to fight but they are being mislead into thinking they are learning elements from arts when in fact they are not.

    It’s not about fighting ability, it comes down to integrity, which is where e-budo is coming from.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2006
  12. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    OK firstly, My instructor Master David Walsh (the aikido man) died before the set up of the BKS, so really it is pointless to say that he has anything to do with the BKS.
    I wasn't promoted by the BKS founders. I was actually graded by a panel of instructor's from other styles. TJF, TKD and RSD. So It was on their approval that I graded to 4th dan.

    Like I have said many a time, please come and train. It is so easy to sit behind a pc and spout come and train with us.

    Like it has been said before, the BKS are NOT an association but more of a support group for each other and its memebers. More of a family.

    Yes I admit e-budo was silly to ask such a dumb question, but without training with me please don't make assumptions to mine or any of the other's BKS' instructors' abilities

    Come and train with us, you would be more than welcome at any of clubs

  13. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    How the heck did that work?
  14. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    They assessed me on not only the given syllabus but also my overall skill level. And understanding of the given techniques. I didn't want to just be promoted so I made sure I had outside instructors taking my grading.

  15. stormronin

    stormronin New Member

    oh dear kempo, you do seem to have made an whoopsy dont you. but what I personally find most distrubing is the fact that now we have two sides. the people who know you and have trained with or under you and then the people who don't know you from adam. its the people who dont know you from adam group, that are the ones who seem so quick not only to have a pop at you, they are sad enough to trawl through a web page taking quotes and disecting them like an a'level english assiment. is it just me or has this begun to get very petty? reading through the posts it seems that kempo kid has said time and time again that people would be welcome to train with him, has no one taken him up on that offer.i have only just come onto this forum and already i seem put off by the kind of witch hunt people are put through on here i thought we were all adults.

    i have a few questions can people help me answer
    a)i do a style of jitsu that can only bearly trace its linage back to a german man who's name escapes me, what makes kempokid any different
    b)is this forum normally like this
  16. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    a) not a lot. and frankly why does a long lineage make a style any better, surely its what we do now that matters?

    b) i'm my experiance...yes. it can be very witch hunty.
  17. stormronin

    stormronin New Member

    thankyou for your answers. iagree lineage means nothing really, why are people always looking back we should be conerntrating on the present and future. i did not ask my instructor what his linage was when i started, and frankly who gives a ****, i went along to the class, everyone was having a good time smiling ect. i spoke to the students and asked them what they thought ,everything was taught in a very safe manner. i do feel that itis the easest thing in the world to have a pop at somebody from a safe distance. i dont really know the difference between jitsu and aikido and i dont really care, as long as i have fun learning a new (and heres the crunch word)
  18. Moony

    Moony Angry Womble

    Having met the guy i trust that he's got enough sence not to do something that he couldn't do. And besides what gives you the right to question how another MA/association manages it's gradings? In the style of Jitsu that i primarily do our senior 3rd dans ganged up on our head of style and promoted him from 4th dan to 5th dan.

    In a lot of things in the world we have panels of 'experts' making desitions and judgements on things. And not every panel member will have necersarilly been doing exactly the same job to exactly that standard. Does dome have to be a master craftsman to recognise the work of a master craftsman?

  19. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    Yeah, that one was similarly dubious. Still can't quite work out how that makes sense. I'm in no way doubting that Julian deserves it, just seems slightly odd - i mean how can a panel of 3rd dans know whats required to be a 5th dan? It'd be like me running a TJF 1st kyu grading (what with only being a 3rd kyu myself). That said i gather its more of an honourific thing than an actual grade or something?
  20. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I don’t know that anyone’s concerned about linage; it’s more to do with truth in advertising. If you advertise that your system is built upon different other systems building blocks people will expect you to be competent within those systems and will draw conclusions on those systems based on what KK teaches them. This is what is behind the questions put to KK.

    There are many hotch potch systems that people have created for one reason or another. What is common among them is that most will claim experience in a number of systems but found they were ineffective and that they have found the key to combining them and improving their techniques. From my experience this claim is often made by people that have little experience within a system and therefore don’t understand the techniques fully.

    Are you really suggesting that the likes of Professor Goldsbury take a leave of absence from Hiroshima University to train with KK. He has an extensive knowledge of Aikido and its instructors in the UK as he has been training in it since the 60’s. He is more likely to just ask who graded him. If the grading was by someone he thought was qualified then there would be no more questions.

    The reality is that KK would be better of not listing any other systems or Japanese titles in his explanation of his art. If he just said it is my art based on my life’s experience then any questions could be answered by training with him. Ranks awarded by panels of peers have very little recognition or respect outside those peers unless they come from a panel of very highly graded and respected instructors. Sometimes it is better to claim no rank (mudan) as some founders have done in the past.

    Once again, it is not the linage that is important, but what claims are being made. Are they being made to trick people into studying something that is not what it claims to be or what he teaches adversely effect the reputation of other arts. So far he has not been able to give an answer that eases these fears.

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