New Judo Move

Discussion in 'Judo' started by inkpen, Feb 21, 2015.

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  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    inkpen, you still haven't addressed my questions regarding how your son was training at one club yet competing for another? You suggested that the problems were in retaliation for this.. Care to clarify / expand please since it brings your motivation into question? Thanks

  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Counters to GNP dont always include counter striking. I told him to get him additional training in how to properly deal with striking while grappling. Which seams like a very prudent peace of advice. I never said he had to strike back, i said teach him to deal with it and that is a very big distinction.

    I honestly thought you would be on board with him improving his sons training. Did i miss something??
  3. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    How have they legitimised it?
    Is there suddenly a rule in place that says: "Strikes to heads are fine now"?

    The kid himself tried apologizing, but your son wouldn't want to hear it.
    Why expect the organization to apologize when some kid did (in your opinion) something wrong?
    They thought it didn't look intentionally, so why would they apologize?
    It's not the Federation that hit your son in the face; in that case I could see a bit of your reasoning.
  4. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Alot of the problems with younger people today is the lack of hard discipline on them. Im not here to be his friend, im here to be his father.

    He can reserve all the anger he wants i dont really care. In that situation he would have earned that punishment. (what ever situation caused such severe punishment, not this specific thread.)

    Slaps on the wrists and horse whoey punishments handed out these days are ineffective.

    Now im not saying i go straight for the jugular, it depends on the severity of the situation and any exigent circumstances. I also know what things have the most effect on my kids, so i can use those things to punish them as needed.

    I love my kids, i am just strict with them. My form of punishment is far improved than what my father and his father before that dished out.. My dad got physical abuse and verbal abuse. i got very little physical abuse but loads of verbal and emotional abuse.

    So i consider my taking away of prized things and activities to be down right merciful.
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Can you expand on this please? I dont want to get it wrong, are you saying you dont care about concussions in youth sports?

    Strike or not, the kid still hit him. The victim still has a concussion, and concussions are a bad thing. Shouldnt we all try to minimize them as much as possible?

    Certainly something could have been done in that kids life or training to minimize that moves risk of causing a concussion.
  6. inkpen

    inkpen Valued Member

    My son, then aged 4, started judo at the largest of the 2 clubs here in Darwin (let's say club M) in Jan 2011.
    The larger club (club M) have a huge stadium c/o gov. All comps between the 3NT clubs (2 from Darwin & 1 from Kathryn) when held in Darwin, are convened at this stadium.
    Club M are like a family run club. This club hold/held majority power in Judo Federation Australia (NT).

    In July 2013 we moved to the other club PCYC/Judo at Dripstone. There is bad blood between the 2 Darwin clubs. The smaller club PCYC trains in cramped conditions. Club M will not share their facilities (government provided).
    PCYC have 2 great coaches in Mick McMahon & Emma Fisher who despite the limited facilities & far fewer members produce far greater success. Although no side is all right or all wrong, I am convinced which of the 2 clubs is by far the more in the right-my son is now training at this club, PCYC. Judo in the NT is, I perceive, in a sad state due to the way it is being administered. Unfortunately it seems to mirror the level of governance at national level.

    Since moving to the smaller Club PCYC, club M have, in my opinion, greeted my son with hostility and have subjected him to unfair treatment at 3 subsequent tournaments. These tournaments were convened by club M at their spacious stadium.

    In the 1st incident in Sept 2013 my son, aged 6, was incorrectly weighed in and entered in the wrong wt division by club M officials. In 1 bout he was matched against a player from club M who was 14 months older, 1/2 a head taller & almost 3 kgs heavier. My son got smashed. We had, in my opinion, also been greeted with overt hostility on arriving at the club M convened event.

    In the 2nd tournament in March 2014 my son was again treated unfairly. He had 4 bouts. He was wearing a blue suit. In the first 3 bouts there was no issue as he was called out from the non-white corner. In his 4th & last bout he was called from the white corner and was pulled off the mat & made to change to a white suit in front of all. There was no need for this as the opponent was wearing a white suit. I was furious.

    What adds insult to injury-in the infamous 11 May 2014 tournament (yes the one of the New Judo Move/the strike to the face of my son) again convened by club M in their large stadium, a senior club M player was wearing a blue suit. He had 2 bouts. In the 2nd of these he was announced as being in the white corner by the club M announcer, but this was quickly changed so he could come from the non-white corner ( and thus not have to change colour suits).

    Yet my 7yo son had not been afforded the same treatment in the March 2014 comp. Fair & equitable???

    However I have ensured that my son wear a white suit in all comps since.

    I sent a polite email to JFA(NT) COM, after this 2nd incident in the March 2014 comp, requesting that I get the opportunity, as a concerned parent, to discuss these 2 incidents re: my son. They did not even bother to reply to my email. I took no further action.

    Then came the 11 May 2014 tournament again convened by club M in their stadium. All the match officials in this bout where my son was fouled were from club M. The offender (a member of club M) was not even warned before the match continued after my son had regained his composure. I sat throughout the entire bout with video camera trained. I can be heard on the audio of full bout version to say "that was a punch". I did not get up & remonstrate. I acted with restraint.

    The following day I submitted a short version with slow-mo to JFA(NT) President, who is also a high ranking official from club M, fully expecting him to immediately email or phone with a "sorry our officials missed that....please relay our apologies to your son". This did not happen.

    Instead he referred the footage to a JFA(NT) Referees Commission whose 3 members were club M officials or affiliates. These were ruling on the actions of a member of their own club M. Their finding was "incidental contact while the player on top was going for a grip.....with nothing malicious or sinister'. I considered this ruling was suspect due to the obvious conflict of interest, and incorrect. I politely requested a re-examination & submitted full fight footage for context. They refused to review and the rest is history.

    Enough was enough as far as I was concerned. 2 incidents I was content to let ride. A 3rd- no way. Hope this clarifies.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015
  7. inkpen

    inkpen Valued Member

    No mate if it was cricket I would ask for another opinion c/o video replay.
    Here I have asked for an independent review. Point blank refusal.
    So because we appeal a decision we are bad sports?!
  8. StripedPickles

    StripedPickles Valued Member

    No, I don't think you are bad sports. If you are looking for a governing body of anything that doesn't make bad decisions, you'll be looking a long time.
    I just don't think it is worth getting your knickers in a knot.
  9. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    I don't really think that there are too many problems with young people today, people have always had fears of the youth of the day for any number of reasons, but i can't say I've really seen a lack of harsh discipline cause anti social behavior, it's normally issues with communication with your parental figures.

    Granted, i've never really been much of an authoritarian, but i tend to think that not allowing the kid to have his say before you enact such a punishment is going to do nothing more than cause a lack of trust in your judgement for the child, which would probably lead to further disobedience, even when what you are telling them is sound advice.
  10. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    He could of not done judo. If you're one of the people who thinks this was an accident, like me, then that is literally the only thing that would have made a difference. And for judo to remove everything that has concussion potential it'd be whittled down to thumb wars.
  11. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I think it's a shame but accidents happen, regardless of the sport. This is 9 months ago and the there's not really anything could of been done to prevent it at the time and not a lot can be done now to stop it happening again

    The rules are already there, either the kid broke them or made an error, either way it's too long ago for a child to comprehend and raking mud with the org is only going to harm one person and he's only 7

    My son would of been asked where his guard was, he knows getting hit is your own fault :)
  12. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Honestly, I think you did miss something.

    He is in a Judo class, Judo isn't supposed to have GNP and it isn't MMA. OP has never stated he has his son in MA to learn self defense- that isn't everyone's goal. You shouldn't assume it is. OP also has clearly demonstrated he had his son in grappling because he is very concerned about his son having perceived damage from a striking art.

    It is only improving his training if it is with self defense goals in mind. But participating from a sporting angle, one shouldn't have to learn to defend against illegal strikes (intentional or not) in a grappling art in a grappling tournament.

    Not everyone wants to learn multiple arts and take the time to do so. And they shouldn't have to. A kid learning one MA is still a lot of dedication. To have to study another art, just to protect himself against illegal strikes in a tournament? That is silly.

    Son isn't going to learn defense against strikes without also learning how to strike. That is a silly as people who say they don't have to learn grappling, they just won't go to the ground from their striking art training to defend against a ground game.
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Exactly. In one 2 minute round of randori last night, I got thrown onto the crown of my head, kicked in the temple and punched in the mouth (I think I probably lost that round). Any of those could have left me with a concussion. Judo is not the sport for people worried about head injuries. Luckily, I'm a beast.
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Everyone accepts that accidents will happen in a physical sport like Judo. But if you thought that the kick on the temple or the punch in the mouth were deliberate then you'd be pretty annoyed, wouldn't you?
  15. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    But unless the guy went full on Tyson, it wouldn't even cross my mind that they were deliberate. The punch in the mouth last night was basically a stiff jab and I'm sure if it had been filmed and slowed down, people would argue back and forth about whether it was deliberate or not - but it wasn't. It's Judo - you're going to get the benefit of the doubt 99 times out of 100 because it is so easy to catch someone with a flailing limb. If you go around believing that everything nasty had malicious intent, you're going to flame out pretty quickly - I couldn't begin to estimate the number of times someone has scored a critical hit when swinging their leg through for an uchimata or by lifting their knee when they've entered for an ouchi (another example of last night's fun) - any one of them could have been deliberate, but how could you step on the mat with these people if you believed they were trying to injure you?
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    With respect, I think everyone knows when someone has caught them by accident or deliberatly 'done them'. Whether it's martial arts or sports like football or rugby, you learn that pretty quickly.
  17. inkpen

    inkpen Valued Member

    Guys after much thought and some advice from others I have decided against posting the email/ letter that constituted an attempt to intimidate and silence me by JFA. I would also have to include a long email that I sent to the JFA President in which I escalated the matter from state to federal level, as explanation.

    I have debated with myself what would be the point of doing this other than to provide further material for a future gif sketch or written equivalent as Moi has suggested. In addition I am a little concerned about privacy issues.

    Perhaps you might take my word for it that this email by the former JFA national secretary constituted a threat - to the extent that I felt compelled to submit a Formal Complaint about this matter. Everybody who has viewed it also agrees that it constitutes a deliberate and malicious attempt to bully and silence me.

    This Formal Complaint, along with another alleging a breach of confidence by the Federal MPIO, was never investigated because the new JFA CEO attached costs to the investigation of these 2 complaints of $6000 + GST. The JFA CEO also attached costs of $38,000 + GST to several other Formal Complaints that I had submitted at state level in the NT that directly addressed the New Judo Move and the behaviour of JFA(NT) officials in this matter.

    Some among you are convinced that I am bitter, twisted and motivated solely by revenge (also a passive/aggressive). Nothing seemingly will change that. I take this on the chin. Posting the threatening letter will not alter this perception. Everything can be argued to be black or white (or white & gold or blue & black).

    I have enjoyed the cut & thrust of the debate on this forum. The odd barb thrown my way has been returned with relish (oh dear there's evidence of my vengeful nature again!).

    Despite what you may think I have been open to persuasion. You guys have made me realize that, contrary to what I thought, this action is not as cut & dried as I thought. I still do believe it was a deliberate strike with malicious intent BUT I can now see that the intent is quite subjective and that not all view it as I do. Also I concede that, as the father of the recipient of this NewJudoMove, I am perhaps a trifle partisan.

    I have tried to steer the debate on from the actual strike that is incidental (yes, yes I know) to the major issue which is the manner in which my complaints have been handled by JFA. I strongly object to JFA"s strategy which seems to me to have been to try to silence me, and to sweep the accusations under the carpet. They have certainly succeeded in avoiding any investigation into my allegations by making the cost of pursuing these Complaints prohibitive.

    The debate however seems stuck on the strike & its intent. The discussion is going around in circles somewhat. Apart from a cursory reference (by aacadia) to my highlighting of other instances of JFA malpractices & behaviour that in my opinion suggest poor governance including an entrenched culture of lack of transparency & accountability in my post on Page 11, there has been absolutely no discussion on these serious matters.

    As I say debate seems stuck on the actual NewJudoMove and other inter MA technicalities. I am therefore leaving this discussion forum at this point.

    Thank you for your comments and for having given me the opportunity to debate with you. Right now my thoughts are with 2 Aussies about to be executed in Indonesia. Andrew Chan & Myuran Sukumaran will be shot to death despite having been successfully rehabilitated. What a waste of life.

    Perhaps as rob0107 has suggested it really is time for me to let go & move on. Energy can be expended more usefully elsewhere.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015
  18. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I'm not sure that's the matter under debate, though. It's not that judo doesn't come with an accepted element of risk, it's that it looks, to me, like the kid on top used a technique that's illegal in the sport of judo. Obviously the judo governing bodies can't completely neuter judo by removing every potentially dangerous technique, but they should enforce the rules that already exist.

    Obviously this is a tough judgement call, even after a few watches I can't quite make out whether it was a deliberate punch or an attempt at a cross-collar grab that turned into a forearm strike by accident - but I err on the side of a punch. However, I do think that, particularly in a kids' match, the referees should be erring on the side of caution and penalising dangerous techniques.
  19. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, if you don't post that letter, you need to stop referencing it as evidence of wrongdoing.

    Sorry, "take my word for it" doesn't cut it. If you are going to accuse them of sending a letter that was inappropriate, we need to see said letter. If it is privacy issue, you never should have referenced said letter in the first place.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015
  20. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I'm not sure the referee had a great view of it in the actual contest, but I agree with you.

    Have we actually been told how the match ended? Seems like a fairly important omission. I've been assuming that the kid couldn't continue, but I'm not sure that's been confirmed.
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