Neutralization (Hua Jin)

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by IMAS, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thanks, as I do not see the difficulties in grabbing if you approach the alone the trajectory of the strike to make contact with the opponent's arm or arms. This is a very common approach in entering to sticking hand in Wing Chun. But it is very difficult when people got used to backing off instead of moving in.

    I was looking at different ways to neutralize a double upper arm grab and pushing forward like in wrestling or in Taiji pushing hand competition. Any suggestion in encountering it?
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Join a class.

    Haven't we been here before?
     
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqq1ln9LYC4"]Push hands training (beginners) part 1 - YouTube[/ame]


    At around 2.40 in this clip there is a movement that combines yielding methods and some deflection/ redirection which I think can work against what you are describing. In the drill the push is aimed more centrally, but it would certainly work if the forward pressure where directed to you upper arms. If you are grabbed, at the very least this movement will bring you to the inside and above your opponents arms - this puts you in a strong position of control and in a strong position to break the grab too.. You might further encircle/ wrap you opponents arms something like over hooks if you want to be/ stay in clinch range.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If your opponent can move back faster than you move in, no matter how good skill that you may have, it won't work on your opponent. This is why how to prevent your opponent from moving back is very important. A simple grab on your opponent's body that connect your body with your opponent's body will be a simple solution.
     
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This is why I don't like yielding. It's like to dodge a punch. You may get away from this punch but you may open yourself for another punch. I don't like the yielding in this clip. You may yield the pushing force, but since your body lean back, it can put you in much worse situation.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqq1ln9LYC4"]Push hands training (beginners) part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    Since you expose your leading leg, you opponent's can attack as shown in the following clip.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDuV8g_rIC4"]Chang_inner_hook - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  6. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    From the Treatise on Tai Chi Ch'uan as researched by Lee N. Scheele:

    "When the opponent is hard and I am soft, it is called tsou [yielding]. When I follow the opponent and he becomes backed up, it is called nian [sticking]."

    Tsou should be Zou in Pinyin, there is a difference between Nian and Zou. My suggestion is that when you encounter the opponent with your springy hand (with Peng Jin?) you stick to him or her. The incoming force will push you in its direction and following is a passive action. Redirecting the incoming force is an active action (the use of 4 oz), and when that force is deflected you can retaliate.
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you opponent "pushes" your upper arms, he may not be interest in your upperbody but your lower leg. When you try to yield the incoming force, don't forget to move your leading leg away.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nSJ3N2m7yw"]knee seize - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  8. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thank you for your confirmation to the Taiji Neutralization Model.
     
  9. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    The Taiji Neutralization Model sounds okay if people starting from the sticking position and do not grab or pull, etc. So, let us come back to the question of what if someone grab both of your upper arms and start pushing or pulling with the intention of doing a take down, etc.
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When your opponent's arms are on your upper arms, the best solution is to wrap his arms with your arms.

    The line between Taiji push hand and wrestling is very hard to draw. It's not realistic to train one and not the other. Whenever your opponent moves his head closer to yours, it's a gift if you know how to use "head lock", "overhook", and "underhook". You also need to learn "leg movement" to take your opponent down after you have obtained your upper body control on your opponent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  11. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thanks, I was thinking of Chen Taijiquan's Dang Tou Pao (當頭炮) to break the grabs and strike or push depending on the rules of the game. There is no real difference between push hand and wresting (without jacket pulling), and the Ng Taiji people are good at wrestling.
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    To break the grabs is easy. All you need is to punch on your opponent's shoulder while pulling your non-punching shoulder back. It's better to take advantage on your opponent's grabs than to break it.
     
  13. fightersheart

    fightersheart New Member

    There are some great technical replies here. My 50 cents in regard to an opponents arms being on my upper arms (in a serious street self defense scenario and only where appropriate) is to either:

    1) to use the freedom of the arms from the elbows down to grab the attackers torso andpull the attacker in to a headbutt

    2) to use a series of open hand upper palm strikes until the opponent loosens up enough for you to take the decisive action of your choice

    This may be outside of the context you are looking at but I find simplicity to be effective under high stress situations where an attacker intends you serious harm.
     
  14. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Your opponent's both hands on your upper arms may prevent you from generate your power needed for that move. Whenever you intend to punch, if your opponent just gives you a little push on your upper arm (or shoulder), your punch will be gone before it's even generated. This is the beauty of the "clinch" if you know how to use "抖(Dou) – Shaking".

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBeabLTokwg"]72_當é**ç‚®.flv - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  15. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thank you Master Wang, from your suggestion of wrap your arms on the opponent's arms [from the outside on top of the opponent's arms], Chen Taijiquan's Dang Tou Pao (當頭炮) should work very well in small circles to break the grabs or with "抖(Dou) – Shaking". Do you differentiate Dou Jing with Fa Jing or similar technique like a Wing Chun inch punch or Xingyi concealed strength?
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In clinch, it's better to be

    - inside than to be outside. When your hands are inside of your opponent's front door, all his center is under your attack.
    - on top than to be on the bottom. You will have weight and gravity advantage.

    If your opponent's hands are on top of your arms, you have to reverse that situation. The easiest way to break your opponent's hands control is to rotate your arm against his thumb.

    While Fajin is one direction force, the "抖(Dou) – shaking" is bi-direction force, a quick pull followed by a quick push (or the other way around). It requires some special equipment training. In the old time, weight pulley was used.

    Here is a good "equipment" to develop "抖(Dou) – shaking". It's the best tool to be used to against a big strong opponent in clinch.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbkbcPJTTes"]Battling Rope Conditioning Exercises - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  17. Vegeta

    Vegeta Hmm I love my girlfriend

    Is this an example of "IMA Hua Jin?" Very curious if people agree or disagree.

    Personally I think it is an amazing set of defensive skills, and the "dissipation" of his opponent's offense.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9en6g9JTQ"]Floyd Mayweather Jr Master of Defense - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  18. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Thanks Master Wang for your clarification but I would differentiate grab from clinch due to fastening, and multiple Fa Jing to battling rope condition in the use of muscle recoil.
     
  19. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    I think head butt and kick (or knee) to the groin will work if the attacker is pulling you to wards him or her. The idea of grabbing the upper arms is trying to control your arms so that your can't grab or strike.
     
  20. ANGELSGYMSINGH

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    George.. how ya doin man... Hope married life is great... I am still studying the Wu Mengxia book.... It is a part of my dissertation work if you can believe it bro.... I mention this because Mengxia is big on this subject of transforming, collapsing point, Wholly integrated strength (full body strikes with shoulder and hip of the seven stars) and small localized strength (head, elbow, hand, foot and knee). He discusses this fully in his Confounding Round Song. My annotations are added to the treatise as I have used this method enough to apply if in form and function.... In my experience Hua Chin is the power to attract an opponent into emptiness and the mastery of Mengxia's take on Yang Family Small Circle Taiji Quan is the key to applying these wisdoms... I also think that the best way to refine the striking/grappling aspects of the concept is to understand Wu Chin (follow, link, attach, stick, never release or resist) and the Five Character Secret of Li I-Yueh. Students of Wing Chun, Small Circle Taiji Quan, Bagua, Western Boxing (Tyson Style) would get a good handle on the following annotations:

    The way of the confounding round is most difficult to comprehend as movements that are up, down, following and uniting are infinitely wondrous. The mastering of the Empty and Full Song is necessary to begin an understanding of the unstable circle that transforms to gather and expel energy. Even the linear extension or retraction of any part of the body can become circular through spiraling motion. The greater the intensity and frequency of the spiral then the longer one maintains the power of internal boxing. With this understanding small destroys big, slanting destroys even and shapeless destroys shaped.....

    /I]Entice the enemy deep within the confounding unstable circular movements of the hand and palm. This is called Hua Chin or the attraction into emptiness of the enemies leading strength when caused to overextend or commit thinking that one is empty or weak when indeed the opposite is true. The spiraling movement of the body can make this happen by slipping off (parrying/guiding without releasing resisting contact) and now one can guide the over-commitment no matter what the force if the timing is correctly executed: One once can move One thousand pounds.
     

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