Just to be sure about grabbing the opponent's upper arms, the following is an example from wrestling: Pounce to Push Pull Double - Home | Coach Krause Practice www.coachkrausepractice.com/.../199153-Pounce-to-Push-Pull-Double Mike Krause is know for his energy and unique approach to teaching wrestling. Here he is at a small clinic in Dallas Texas teaching a push pull double.
No, not at all. I'm saying that the concept of ranges and controlling range in combat is theory and is not fact. The use of ranges and the attempt to control ranges is only a tool useful in training. Ultimately, I am stating that Tai Chi is for very close range when unarmed. Grappling range. Any further range of combat is useful as a transition but I do not believe other ranges (further than grappling) can be sustained (without running away).
Ok, I see what you mean. I don't look at it as a fact, just an idea, or analysis of a scenario in a specific moment in time. I don't think it's too relevant as to what it is, just words describing certain circumstances. Yeah, I'd agree with this to a certain extent, though I would call it 'footwork' not 'running away'. Ideally, the stand up grappling range or infighting range, whatever we call it, is hard to safely maintain for any prolonged period of time. It's doable in training, but as you said earlier this is by agreement mostly (push hands etc). However, if your in an actual live event, you should not be staying there for any prolonged time period, you can try to come in and engage the opponents structure to unbalance/find an opening and attack. If you fail to capitalise on an opening but still have control over the opponent you can try create another opening, but if you fail and have lost control (providing you haven't been beaten by then), you should move out to try again or try a different approach. This all happening within a few seconds and yeah, you can't just stay there and keep trying without getting beats. Even in a competitive push hands scenario it is very difficult to maintain a forearm length range and attempt to engage from there for any significant amount of time (unless the opponent is pretty useless and weak), generally you end up clinching and attempting throws soon after.
The use no force issue has been resolved a long time ago, the force that Taijiquan refers to is brute force like they use in external martial arts. In biomechanics, brute force is concentric muscle contraction and the Jin in Taijiquan is eccentric muscle contraction. The generated springiness or recoil from eccentric muscle contraction is stored elastic energy of muscle.
I think it's very easy to get confused by the word 'force' because it gets used in so many different ways. For example there is the 'empty force', the 'audible force', and the thirteen kinetic movements are sometimes referred to as 'forces'. The context in which I was using the word was in the sense of effort or excertion.
I'm a bit confused by this statement, since even a relative beginner at pushing hands is learning how to neutralise a force which is heading towards their spine. Would be so kind as to elaborate a bit? Many thanks.
I think YouKnowWho is addressing alignment. When you align with your front foot and the opponent's two feet in one line, the opponent will be very strong against a push into them, but the opponent will not be able to use rotation of the hips to help them. It changes the dynamics to one of a very linear formula. IMHO.
In Chinese there is only one word "li" for force or forces, and people like to use jin to differentiate which can be viewed as a multiple of forces or some sort of tension. Anyway, one can add as many adjectives to it. I am not sure what you mean by effort or excertion, but think how you issue force in Taijiquan.
From the three levels of forces, one might have two types of neutralizations. One is to neutralize a visible force, and the other is to neutralize a concealed force developed in Xingyiquan and Yiquan. I think the issue of force (fa jin) in Taijiquan and the inch punch in Wing Chun can also be considered as a kind of concealed force. It just a force that one can issue in a static position in contact with the opponent.
Thanks, Rebel, That's exactly what I was talking about. Here is a simple test. Use your forearm to push your opponent's upper arm (toward his spine) horizontally when your leading foot and both of his feet are on a straight line. Also try to push a door frame when your leading foot, the edge of the door frame, and the door axis are all on a straight line. That door won't spin.
If you are talking about the Ming Jin, An Jin, and Hua Jin in XingYi, that Hua Jin has nothing to do with "neutralization". 1. Ming Jin - hard force, has sound, has wind, use to hurt muscle and bone. 2. An Jin - soft force, has no sound, has no air flow, use to hurt the internal organs. 3. Hua Jin - extream soft force, the end of the An Jin is the beginning of the Hua Jin, use to hurt "soul". It starts to get "abstract" from here.
Hi Mr. Wang, Have you ever encountered 'Hua Jin'? Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. Thanks!
When you just start your MA training, your punch will generate no sound and generate no wind. Oneday your punch will generate sound and wind (air flow). The harder that you punch, the more sound and more wind that you can generate. You have just reached to the Ming Jin training stage. At this stage, your mind is still on your arms and how to make your punch to reach the maximum acceleration (speed). Oneday you realized that your sound and wind are getting weaker and weaker, but your punching power is even better than before. You have just reached to the An Jin training stage. At this stage, your mind is on your body (not on your arms any more), to utilize your full body weight behind your punch. Since you no longer depend on your acceleration (speed) but your body weight, your sound and wind are gone. Since the end of An Jin training stage is the beginner of the Hua Jin training stage, you may never know that when you may cross that boundary in your life time. It's like you may know that you was a bad person before (steal, cheat, ...), but today you are a good guy (friendly, care, ...). Whether you will become a "holy person" in your life time, you will never know.
Either way there will be a physical technique of neutralization.If what you think is a concealed force is made manifest it's no longer concealed. If you mean a pre-emptive strike due to your awareness of the opponent's concealed force that's a neutralization of a different stripe. Any of the main TC expressions of force/power and their variant combinations can be issued in a static position when in contact,are they then all fa jins or what you consider concealed?
IMO, the concept of "neutralization" is too conservative. Your opponent wants to give you something, you can either - rejest it, or - accept it and use it to against your opponent. The neutralization is like to "reject" your opponent's gift. In the - striking art, it's better to borrow your opponent's force and create a head on collision, A + B > A. A simple example is to deflect your opponent's punch but let his body to run into your punch/kick. - grappling art, it's better to borrow your opponent's force and create a rear end collision, A + B > A. A simple example is to pull your opponent's incoming force and let his body to meet the hard ground.
Thanks for your comment, but I think the word conceal is the right choice because it does not mean invisible or impossible to see. To issue a force from a static position and has some impact is not so simple, may be you can elaborate a bit more before we continue on neutralization.
It may not be simple,it's not necessarily complicated, but it's a basic training method. Not everyone uses it as such but there are those who do. Such as the late Yang,Shao-chung. It's no secret. Elaborate? Well,static,moving,no difference.You were speaking of already being in contact and static so... you catch their center and issue whatever "energetic" options you have or just apply raw force like a bomb. Depends on what you want to do. It surely can have quite a bit of impact,either directly on you or rather more like in you, or when your body hits something solid,like the floor. The above was predicated on issuing through the current contact points in your in contact scenario. If it's allowed in the scenario to break contact at at least one point then you could issue for example by striking with whatever part of that limb-which will in essence be like many such medium to short range strikes in many systems. By the by, In your comment on fa jin,if you meant that both you and your opponent are static then you wouldn't use fa jin in that circumstance.
Thank you for your elaboration but don't you and your opponent have to be static momentary before you fa jin? There should be some points of exertions in order to make you explosive power to work.
IMO, that's a misunderstanding. You should be able to 'issue force' whilst moving - being rooted doesn't mean being stuck-in-the-mud.
Hua Jin Hua Jin(化劲）is based on Nian Jin and Zou Jin, neither too soft lost nor hard against the opponent, it may flexible to forward/ backward directions, or left/right directions, always follow on touch the opponent's power, not leave away, so the opponent has no chance to punch or push you, feel uncomfortable, but it is your success to comfortable control the opponent's power, Hua Jin should has little Peng Jin inside, it is not use the hand and shoulder's power, it is important on legs and lower back's power, if use hands' power, that will be hard push or block power, Hua Jin can borrow the opponent's power, may high/low, straight/ horizontal, fast/slow,if the opponent's power is straight, you can use Hua Jin to make it become bent direction, tilt it to left/right,up/down, and change its directions, it is very flexible useful, and the opponent never understand your power directions, till the opponent totally lost his direction, this is straightly Hua Jin. After Hua Jin, you can use Na Jin and Fa Jin, So the Hua Jin should connect to next Jin, it should not be end itself, but it should not begin/connect too early/late, always follow the opponent's power condition. About the circle Hua Jin, big circle is easy, small circle is difficult, Hua Jin is not totally soft power, because behind Hua Jin there is Fa Jin power, these two power should be connect good,looks like Backward Hua Jin, in fact is attack forward Fa Jin, this is surface soft cotton but inside hard like steel, during long time practice and the increase of internal power, Hua Jin can use soft power to face opponent's hard power, use 4 ounces force to move thousand pounds power. So the beginner Tai Chi Push Hands practitioners, the comprehension Jin(Dong Jin) is very important.
