Nei Gong

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by inthespirit, Jan 26, 2005.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hey sh, nice to see you back around..

    You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out.

    I'm pretty sure he's probably a senior instructor under DD if Wudang school. Oxford..
    An excellent school. I am sure he is very good and has excellent credentials.
    But that is not really the point? It doesn't matter if he hads 1 yr. What is being said here is the issue.

    Personally I think theres a bit of prejudice going on - maybe through their/his experience that they should get past..

    BTW what's wrong with defending peoples right to do as they please regards tai chi ? Hippies have as much right to take it up as any one else :D . If people don't want martial so what!!?? At our place if we get wuss's in they don't stay long, once they feel a bit of pain. There's lots of classes around we are all free to take our pick. There is a principle at work here - I am sure you can see it. Personally I am more than happy to defend this principle for anyone. My teacher won't teach that way, and I admire that he's prepared to lose people from the class. There are teachers who don't mind teaching such classes. This is ok too right..?

    ---------------​
    Hmm ZZ..

    come on liokault!

    lets replace God with nature shall we or tree even.. ZZ trains many things..

    sinking, root etc... develop power in IMA.

    Ok lets say Ali is hitting the bags hard.. he's thinking " praise be to allah give me strength to knock out this motha.."

    I think he did ok didn't he?

    It seems you snookered yourself mate..

    try again :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2005
  2. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    Oh come on....I even sent you a PM and you still get it wrong!!




    But that wouldnt work!!



    Yeah...um ...see with the bag work and the praising Allah thing, some would think (fools) that the hitting the bag bit was improving the boxing rather than the Allah bit.

    See he HIT the bag while praising Allah, he didn't strike a stance and believe that he was getting some form of skill.
     
  3. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Does liokault do Wudang Tai Chi?

    Geo, what's with the crazyness over us Wudang lads and lassies? What you said doesn't describe us very well.
     
  4. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    I think you guys should stop attacking each other and possibly say something constructive. It sounds like the real issue here is difference in schools of thought and everybody's unwillingness to view people as discussion-sharers rather than filibusters and enemies. Tone it down and we may actually get something out of this. Otherwise, let the thread die and move on.
     
  5. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Hey there Geo, I thought I had better pop in seeing its been so long, should be writing an essay but really cant be a... bothered... :D

    I understand what youre saying but it all makes for interesting convo... Hope all is well with you mate...
     
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member



    All you said was ' he's in my class' my mistake.


    Why not? Do you know its purpose?





    He wasn't doing IMA I thought you were cleverer than that.
    standing/holding postures (have you trie holding snake creeps down?) is a part of my practice amongst other things it helps me with my rooting. Sometimes I usually go for the empty mind approach sometime I use visualisation, also line of intent is very important in holding the postures of taichi. The energy that is in the posture. Peng or An, Li whatever..

    Well anyway When hitting things I am also training many things..


    Tim Cartmells Xinyi neigong book is good you should read it some time.

    I suppose you are saying that santi is innefective? These guys used to practice a neigong routine in bed!!!! IMA trains all day, or aims to. Healthy mind and body is very important. It require focus. That is yours to choose. As is mine. As was Ali's.

    We all will live and die by our choices.

    Regards Geo
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2005
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Because its coming from these guys and its lame. It winds me up TBH. I'm sure they're good lads an all.

    Its arguing over language and terms for the most part. Its stereotyping and prejudice mixed in there too.

    Why the need to slag others nei gong practices?

    What is so special about they'rs/yours?

    I am actually interested. And what do you think it trains and how.

    If you're going to slag other peoples practice off at least back it up with something of substance. The practices are well documented by many teachers Some more romantic some Classical in they're aproach. You chose which you prefer. But the people in the know realise there is no difference. Just taste and imagination. You want to think in scientific/biological terms fine. Others prefer the less pinned down aproach. or more widescope :) I accept all sets of terms - you should know me by now brido



    You get it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2005
  8. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    At least I have the guts to have a profile you rude arrogant loser :bang: Your mind is a closed box. 17 years practice and yet you have no humility or manners. Boy have you had a second class journey on the Way. I'd ask for my money back if I were you lol
    What are you so frightened of anyway? I wasn't going to write you off, I simply wanted to know your Tai Chi background so I could try and understand where you were coming from, but now you can just not bother - I now know where you are coming from btw up your own back passage m8
    Shame on you - people like you are 'killing Taiji' with your narrow mindedness and prejudices - using qi for healing is a time-honoured tradition in China and most good MAists also practice some form of medicine. I am also trained in Shiatsu and massage. My approach is reasoned and scientific (despite what you with your prejudices about qi may think) - but I doubt someone as ignorant and bigotted as you would ever understand that.
    You're a joke m8
    :Angel:
     
  9. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I don't slag anyones off.

    The main purpose of our Nei Gung is to

    -Train the body to absord blows/shock
    -Strenghten the body and tendons
    -Exercise the internal organs
    -Develop Jing

    Probs do more as well, I can't remember as I really am quite quite drunk.

    If someone else does it to excite and develop the Chi then good for them, but I am getting results with my own and I will stick to that.

    That isn't slagging the other off.

    We have people who only want to do forms at our class, and we are perfectly happy to cater for them. We get them doing push hands and applications, but focus on the form with them. Not everyone wants to start hitting each other.

    Personally I think some Tai Chi is better than no Tai Chi.

    I think you are talking about liokault and tarring us all with the same brush. I still don't know, do we know if he even does Wudang Tai Chi Chuan, as registered by Dan Docherty under Practical Tai Chi Chuan International?

    Can I also add that I went to Wexford in Ireland last year for a 5 day seminar with Dan, and I went with some class mates. One of them who pops down when time allows is a Reiki Healer, and Dan was really keen and receptive to him.

    He even doen some to my feet on the fourth day. I couldn't feel anything at the time he was doing it, but afterwards my feet felt numb. He says he uses a combo of Reiki and massage and such. He got into it when he fell with Chronic Fatigue, and used it as a coping stragety and self help. He now does things like that for a living, and it takes him around the worl. Not reiki healing, but working on coping strageties and team building and such. Really nice guy.

    We are as open and receptive as any other group I know. It is true we are more skeptical, but it doesn't make us close minded nor arrogant.

    Please excuse blatant spelling mistakes, as I am quite blind drunk.

    Just do your thing and we will do out thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2005
  10. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    Who am I?

    I am an engineering student (almost finished) with a bit more than a year of hung gar. No other martial art experience beforehand.

    I really dont see why you need to know my background. My post either makes sense within the spectrum of fighting, or it doesnt.

    But heres another message relating to the nature of kungfu.
    Any kungfu style is a systematic martial art method. Systematic means that its a process one has to pass through to learn the basics. Its a factory approach to making soldiers ( obviously im talking ancient china here). Read up on Steve morris as he coined the term "systematic martial art" . Its also a good read as it offers a perspective on eastern martial art from one who tried to get it where it should be but got woefully ignored.

    So the real truth about kungfu is this:

    Fighting skills come first. Chi kung, chi sao, wooden dummy, push hand, stances, forms come second.

    Long winded monologues on these second place exercices if it doesnt relate directly to fighting skills==useless.

    And also, I really dont understand why people need to talk about taoism. As a buddhist, raised and born as one. I just dont care. Its basically comes off as BIBLE THUMPING. And yes Ive read the tao te ching. It relates to how to conduct a kingdom durring the warring state period so as not to get yourself whipped to oblivion. Again, completely unrelated to martial art.

    So please stop talking about ying and yang and which way theyve gone to to live happily together. Ughhh....

    On a tai chi forum, i should expect people to talk about push hand in this fashion:

    He had me in a joint lock, he was goiing to get me to the ground. As i was struggling, i took control of his rear leg to completely throw him off balance in the direction he was aiming for by simply lifting it up over his shoulder easily. To which at that moment in time I then yielded to him to further develop his flip.

    Or he as was pushing me, i warded him off in one direction. By reaction he adjusted by 'flowing' in the opposite direction, by which I executed a hip throw to help him in that direction.

    What I get instead is metaphorical pseudo-scientific nonsense.

    How dare I talk about IMA if I come from EMA background? Because, its really quite simple. As paul eng who has creds alot more noteworthy than I sums it down. Two different approach to get to one point in space. Basically, IMA and EMA should converge to the same place. Which is knowing how to fight.

    And there was a thread in the IMA forum where it offers an explanation as to why the term IMA is a mistranslation for a focus on internal working at the beginning. Problem being that the method consisted of a focus at the beginning of the training for nei gong, and then progressively bring in that knowledge to EMA techniques. While EMA went the opposite direction. Technique first, internal working after. Too bad it didnt get any big reply.

    Ill post the link as soon as i fiind it.
    Found it:
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39117
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2005
  11. reikislapper

    reikislapper see you on the flypaper

    inthespirit,

    I've just read your piece and could I ask you a few questions later on as I'd like to know more about this. I do have some indepth ones as well and I'll be very serious for once as there are a few points I'd like to address as well and hopefully get some good answers.
    lisa xx
     
  12. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    And what a profile it is, energy boy!



    I question your whole concept of Tai Chi, but again, another thread.

    LOL Hmmmmm, scientific energy healing.
     
  13. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    One thing it is not is unique. I have seen a hung gar class doing the same nei gung that Dan teaches. I think that the uniqueness is in the perception of what the training is doing.
     
  14. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    Nice post Brido. I think some people here are getting way to hung up on individuals personal beliefs about qi, rather than taking the opportunity to discuss taiji's traditional method of conditioning the body - AKA nei gong.

    From my limited knowledge of nei gong it uses the mind (we all agree that exists don't we?), body and breathe (one of the many translations of qi btw) to strengthen /condition the body. Is this a definition people can agree with?

    How people choose to understand and explain the process that goes on behind the scenes is secondary to the end result. It's a bit like death - you can explain it in religious terms as moving on to another plane of existence, re-incarnation or in scientific terms as the body ceasing to work - either way, the person is still dead!

    So TB, Liokault and the rest of you fighting the never-ending argument over the dogma of qi, how about sharing some of your experience of nei gong with us? How long did / have you practised it for? What, if any, benefits did it bring you? An insight into the nature of your practise would also be interesting - although I understand if its closed door stuff that you don't want to share on such a public forum...
     
  15. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    Your background definitely makes a difference MAN00b. It tells me that you don't have any experience of taiji, and that your opinions on taiji have about as much value as my views on hung gar!

    As for your definition of all kungfu styles as systemic martial arts, I don't believe it applies to taiji. All the historic info I've seen points to Taiji having its roots in family martial arts systems, passed and developed from generation to generation, and learnt from a young age. Eventually it was taught to the elite soldiers / bodyguards of the imperial house, who had already learnt some basic fighting skills. It was never a factory for churning out infantry grunts.
     
  16. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Wow, possibly the WORST insult ever... I seriously wonder how TB will get over it... No, really, I do... I'm serious... Really....

    I'd rather be called "energy boy", than have the same outlook on TJQ that you have. It is so closed minded and empty that it is almost painful. You say you have practised for 17 years, yet you have no belief in Qi? Or any kind of internal energy? I would suppose then, that you practice Push Hands like some form of EMA, eg- JuJutsu. If your not using internal energy, then you are not doing Taiji as far as i'm concerned.

    And while you ridicule others for there beliefs, I find you to be sad and pitiful. Perhaps the last 17 years would have been better spent growing up, rather than stamping your feet around practicing the butchered system that you have spent so much time on.

    We're killing Taiji? No.
    You are not only killing Taiji, you are stamping on it, putting it in a box and burying it in your backyard, only so that you can misuse its name and attach it to whatever BS it is you practice.
     
  17. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    Sorry, I didn’t realize that I was meant to raise the insult throwing stakes!

    Again, we need to define internal energy. From what every one else is saying, your ju jitsue guy is using 'chi' or internal energy or whatever.

    If you think that your fundamentally using a different 'energy' when you’re doing pushing hands than the JJ guy, you are a dreamer

    Because their beliefs are so lame, also because they can in no way back up some really outrageous claims (talking about "chi" based tai chi here in general, not just this thread).


    I believe that you have never taken a tai chi class in your life. Many dance classes but no tai chi.
     
  18. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    Come on Liokault. I'm trying hard to give you the benefit of the doubt. You say that we don't need to know any more about you other than the fact that you've practised taiji for 17 years. Well I say it's quality not quantity that counts, but I'm quite happy to judge you on what you say rather than who you have trained with.

    The problem is, so far all you seem to be saying is Qi is BS / psuedo science / gives taiji a bad name. That's your opinion, and you're just as entitled to it as any other memer of this forum. You've expressed it loud and clear - now how about moving on and sharing some of your 17 years of taiji experience with us - especially on the subject of nei gong as this is the subject of this thread?
     
  19. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Well what do you want to know? I am very open to shareing.
     
  20. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    Is it just my spidey sense or are you a spoofer liokault?

    If you were so open to sharing your knowloedge you'd have volunteered some
    constructive Information by now.

    I'm still a noob to TCQ, 7 months experience, and dont know much about jujitsu but im pretty sure they use their bodies in different ways than TCQ players.

    I'll post in more detail later when I got more time.
     

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