Nei Gong

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by inthespirit, Jan 26, 2005.

  1. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    Spirit the link form your 1st post died.
     
  2. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned



    Hmmmm, will I find that I have wasted 10 mins?
     
  3. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    Brido, I take it your from the Chen Ting Hung line?

    Ask your teacher why it is that your nei gung alows you to withstand being jumped on. I bet he says nothing about your chi being stronger.
     
  4. airweaver

    airweaver Valued Member

    not really :)
     
  5. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    Maybe liokault could give us all some background into his knowledge and experience into martial arts and what training he has done to come to his own conclusions of Chi. I have no problem with the fact that some people believe in it and some people dont. But has he had any kind of training in internal arts and if so how much?
     
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Over half my life spent training in Tai Chi (I am well into my 30's now) and about 12 years of nei gung.

    During this time I have crossed paths with many cma'ists. The common denominator is an inverse relationship between their belief that chi is a phenomenon that can be developed like some mystical power, and there ability on the mat against any sort of resistance.
     
  7. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Check the most recent thread on Chi, I don't believe in it. Or more accurately, not believing it being some sort of mythical energy.
     
  8. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Liokault -
    OO ARE YER??
    (Your profile says nothing and that's just not polite round here ;) lol)
    As for 'qi' it's a dull old argument round here imo
    ...some believe, some don't - most misconceive, which is where the arguments really stem from imo :rolleyes:
    ho hum
    :Angel:
     
  9. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    Regarding Chi, there are many thing that Western Science cannot measure - I'm not an expert, but have read that just observing a process deeply affects it - maybe quantum physics? Remeber Zen philosophy, ie a tree falling in the forest - does it make a noise if no-one (ie 'rational' 'logical' human being) hears it? Also, we can accept that heat and electricity and magnetism are forms of energy, and the human body produces significant amount of these (electricity=nerve impulses) - why cannot these contribute to the concept of Chi? There are many subtle levels that the logical mind has difficulty comprehending. Just because we cannot feel something, does not mean that it is not there.
    "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King"
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2005
  10. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    liokault you are welcome to your view but there are many of us out there that do not regard Chi as some super force so on that level I agree with you. As far as I am concerned its just a natural energy in all of us. I do not try and make it complicated like many do. I have met more than a few people who swear by it and if it works for them then why should it worry you. My teacher has lived in the East for nearly 20 years and rarely talks about it. This is because its just part of their way of life they dont treat it as anything special. I also do Shiatsu and I have never thought as Chi anything other than part of our natural make up. I do not feel its a big deal if you believe in it or not as long as your Tai Chi Chuan is giving you what you want. I do believe all this fighting about if Chi exists or not are petty arguements which do not help any of us studying martial arts.
     
  11. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    If you believe in chi or not is no concern of mine, to a greater or lesser extent I concur with some of the statements above.

    My concern is that belief in 'chi' instead of (!!) real training, IS damaging to tai chi. Believe in chi as much as you like, but do not substitute crazy unproven (no matter how many guys you have met who can project chi, none can do it on demand to some one who is not previously a believer) crap for the real thing.....i.e. hard work and the development of real skill.
     
  12. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Guess we all better do what he says guys...
    ...sounds like he's a NEXPERT!! lol :rolleyes:
     
  13. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    Seriously, its not really up to liokault to prove himself.

    As he pretty much sums up the opinion of anyone with a dash of common sense who read the first post in the thread. As in huh?
     
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    thank you.
     
  15. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hi Tcgohan,

    Not really sure exactly what method your teacher is teaching you, but I guess they are all more or less the same. In the “nei gong” set I was taught, the “microcosmic circulation” was done after some other “nei gong” exercises, these primarily had an effect of, relaxing and balancing the body, mind and energising the organs. This process “greases the groove” so to speak, and makes you more prepared for the “microcosmic orbit”, though I don’t think its absolutely necessary.

    Basically, when doing the “microcosmic orbit”, I think it is best to do it in a relaxed manner. There are some schools which practice this exercise in a forceful manner, but this can potentially cause physical and mental problems. So, in my opinion the more relaxed you are the better, and if can do some other chi gung/nei gug before hand, to make you feel more relaxed and comfortable, it is possible that you will get better results than if you did this straight away, without anything to “grease the groove”.

    I think it is probably best to ask your teacher, see what he/she thinks about this. From my experience I notice that the more relaxed your mind and body, the easier the exercise, and the better the results, I think such rationale is safer and more effective.

    Don’t really think I have any more info on this exercise, but if you have a specific question, feel free to ask.

    Yeah mate, it was a website of a guy named Peter Lim Tian Tek. It disappeared for ages, but I just found it again, some really great info on there. Its here: http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/ , the article I was refereeing to is this one: http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/lunjing.htm .

    Makes sense. The thread title is Nei Gong, if you don’t have any experience with such you are not expected to understand. For example, since I do not know anything about thermodynamics, I would not expect to understand a technical discussion of such, common sense or not.

    Liokault, I don’t really know what your experience is, and I don’t really care. But, I do know what my experience is. This thread is for discussing “Nei Gong”, not pursuing your vendetta against “Chi”. So, if you have a problem with a “traditional” training method, and your attitude to such is negative, it only leads me to believe that you either had a mediocre teacher, you’re a bad student, or have no such experience whatsoever. The reason for this being is that it is irrelevant whether you believe in “Chi” or not, for “Nei Gong” to work. If “Nei Gong” did not work for you, then there is something wrong with you, a bad workman always blames his tools.
     
  16. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    Problem is thermodynamics does describe internal work, what i see in the first post is pseudo science at its finest to describe something that has already been described in scientific terms.

    The end result in that post are just ways to mess up with the regular clock of your body and people think ITS CHI :bang: :bang: :bang: .

    Internal work is important as it is a base to get the most out the external movement. But what I read in that point is a focus on detail that just completely misses the point of a simple awareness of your whole body to get the most out of it and synchronizing it to an intent, or to simply improve blood circulation.

    PS: Also I completely agree, if you dont know thermodynamics, then youre not expected to understand internal working. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2005
  17. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Pseudo Science? That is just your own opinion, and I have already addressed this issue. Like I said if you have no experience, with Nei Gong, I do not expect you to understand any of what was written. Call it what you wish. It has been around for much longer than you, and has proved itself effective.

    I don’t understand what you mean by this. I can only assume you have no experience with Nei Gong. What experience have you got with the topic at hand.

    Nei Jia is all encompassing. There are certain methods that deal with whole body awareness, there are others which deal with each individual aspect, ones that deal with everything in between, and ones that are all encompassing. Each has its own part to play.
     
  18. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    off topic unmasking of a creepazoid

    ...just to put this into a whole new perspective...
    Liokault....it took me a while to realise... are you the same c**t who had "cockfighting" down in his 'interests' in his profile when I met you in chat? If you are, then I suggest that you have absolutely no claim to intelligence, rationality or any credibility whatsoever! :bang:
    Noob - you should pick who you're supporting more carefully imo

    Regarding the thread itself - it is an interesting overview of a complex subject, and unfortunately (as ever on MAP) it is largely a case of "casting pearls before swine". Will comment in more detail when I've had time to read it through again.
    Peace
    :Angel:
     
  19. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Some interesting info there TJB, and nicely put too. I just wanted to add a few ideas as to why I think some people have such issues with the “chi” thing. I think I may be opening up a whole can of worms here, but hey I like worms.

    Many modern day people base their beliefs on science. Why does ‘chi’ phenomena not fit in to the Scientists book. Science know a lot, but it does not know everything. A very simple way to understand this is to acknowledge the fact that all science is based on the intellect. I.e. it has all been derived with the intellect, and is worked using the intellect. Science has virtually no understanding of anything beyond the intellect, and most modern day people have rarely glimpsed anything beyond such. In other words they are trapped by their own intellect. There is a whole lot of stuff going on which is beyond the grasp of the intellect, and no amount of intellectually trapped scientists are ever going to see any of it. If you think not, then ask yourself this: “Why has man with his superiorly developed intellect got no coherent understanding of the basics of existence i.e. life, death, universe, etc”. The reason is that such is not possible to understand with the intellect alone.

    Those with Nei Gong experience may have noticed that one cannot think his/her way to internal perception, in fact if one does, its called delusion. The point is to stop the intellect from stirring at all, unless it is so commanded. The intellect follows certain principles, such as no independent origination, absolute truth, nor absolute falsity (except for a few exceptions). In fact the structure of the human intellect is circular, i.e. you can think for a billion years and unless you observe this circular structure, you will keep moving in circles, and ending up where you started. If anyone warrants a more in depth explanation of this, please ask, I’m sure I can knock one out for you.

    Nei Gong and the “chi” framework are based on universal principles, as such they are also beyond the grasp of the intellect alone. One needs experience first, part of which is the cessation of thinking. Then an understanding of the way the intellect works, which can be understood without the experience mentioned above, but does not serve much purpose on its own. Then you can combine the above two factors, with the intellectual framework of “chi”, and then your only just scraping the surface. You then spend a whole load of time learning about your surroundings, because the world you once knew has crumbled. The reason the world you once knew has crumbled is because your understanding of it was purely intellectual, and such is incomplete.
     
  20. airweaver

    airweaver Valued Member

    chi can probably be given a modern scientific explanation and reason for being if only theyd bother to merge the modern with the ancient knowledge....the whole mystical thing surrounding it puts a lot of people off before theyre even on..

    but if the body gives off an electromagnetic field, it would be no huge step of the imagination to assume that we can exert some kind of control over it, if the time is taken to develop the sensitivity to the non-physical aspects of the self.

    i know that ive felt something which feels like thick, syrup like paste flowing through me when ive actually sat down and bothered to do chi kung (or NEW- new energy ways) again its no big step of the imagination to relate this to what the chinese have come to know as "chi", or to any yogi as "prana".. whatever you call it is completely irrelevant.

    try this exercise..

    imagine holding a hand drill, feel yourself pushing the trigger and feel the drill spin. feel the motor rumbling in your hand and resonate up your arm as you drill..
    Then, feel it come to a complete stop, the drill, motor and everything stops- no more vibrations or force.

    this mental recreation of the sensations of using a drill *have an objective location* the drill your imagining your holding is real in some realm of this multiverse we live in, just not the physical.
    ...this imagined drill is created by thought energy, the longer you imagine holding it, the more visceral and *real* the sensation becomes.

    the excitement comes when you focus these kinds of feelings inside your body... example imagining a ball of light condensing itself over and over again with each breath into the point between your eyebrows (or 3rd eye point)
    do that for a while and really come into synch with your energy body and the potential of self discovery.
     

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