Need help > Challenge me with Martial Arts Myths

These belt folklores and BS get better and better

 

I'm not saying I believe it, but I will observe the traditions. My children also take MA with me. I want them to observe this tradition, of course realizing that they nor I will lose all that we have gained by untying our belts. But that it is polite to observe certain lore.

 

G'day folks,
Thought I might be able to help out a bit with some of these questions.This is all off the top of my head so if you need sources it will take a bit longer.

I have just selected some of Slindsay's questions from page 2 and answered them in short:

Q. "The damn cartilige from the nose going into the hbrain from palm heel strikes, I've heard it both ways from people including medical students so I'm really not sure about it."

This is definately myth! The only entrance into the brain from the nasal cavity is through tiny foramen, which are holes in the very thick section of skull that houses the brain. The nasal cartilage is soft and the nasal bones delicate, both will smash or shatter before either can be driven through the skull and into the brain. The only access from the sinuses to the brain are via the foramen through which the nerves, veins and arteries pass, which are far too small to allow nasal bones to pass through into the brain cavity and to compound this the angle is innapropriate to make this feat possible. If however, by some bizarre set of circumstances, some small fragments of bone or cartilage did penetrate and lodge in the brain they would enter the frontal lobe, which is safely removed in a procedure called a frontal lobotomy!!! Death is unlikely at any rate.

Q. "Where did the martial arts come from?"

There has been combative practice in most countries for longer than histroy has been recorded. For one country, let alone one monastery to claim hereditary rights to the great grandfathership of all martial arts is at best an ego filled and illogical claim. There is evidence from archaeological digs in Greece, found on clay pots, of people fighting using open hand strikes and front kicks, which predate the shaolin monastery. It would be unlikely however that Japanese Kogusoku came from greece now wouldn't it?

Q. "When did the dan system come into affect?"

Although the Kyu/Dan ranking system was present in a few ryuha prior to 1906, it was not until the formation of Kodokan Judo that this system actually gained popularity.

Q. "Why is there so much crap in MA technique wise today?"

The truth is there always has been... you get the good with the bad!

Q. "What scientific evidence is their as to the existance of Chi?"

That depends exactly on what type of Chi one is referring to? If it is the Traditional Chinese Medical version of Chi then we are really looking at the dynamic processes in the body. Also we are looking at several different types of Chi, one of which, "Da Chi" is literally the air we breath, and another, "Gu Chi" is literally the food we eat... if you need evidence of the existance of air or food then simply stop breathing or eating and see what happens... This is pretty powerful Chi!
If one is referring to Chi in the martial arts sense of the word then I argue that this is merely a reference to efficient biomechanics. The scientific evidence to support the superior effects of effeicient biomechanics are many and one need only search for "biomechanics" or "Kinesthetics" to find studies.
Anything other than this, such as throwing Chi balls or no touch knockouts have no scientific basis beyond what is known as pre-hypnotic suggestion and have yet to stand up to any scientific scrutiny!

Q. "Which art is practiced now in the manner closest to how it was practiced a 1000 years ago?"

This is a difficult question! The Koryu types would claim that their practise is the closest, however I would think that 1000 years ago their arts were either non existant or undergoing a state of change and development. The Koryu arts are more like static museum pieces dedicated to preserving things at a specific point in time, which is most likely around the Meiji restoration.
I would personally think, in terms of common MA, that Military Combatives would be the closest in terms of goals and objectives and Judo and BJJ/MMA would pull up a close second and third! But if I were a betting man my money woul dbe on the traditional wrestling forms of India, Greece and Turkey, which may well be practised the same now as they were 1000 years ago.

Q. "Where are their pressure points on the body and how hard do I need to hit them?"

There are literally hundreds of them on various locations all over the body used in acupuncture therapy not all of these are particularly vulnerable striking points though. In terms of how hard you need to hit them I would argue that you don't need to hit them at all!
If this question was rephrased to ask how hard does one need to hit them to provoke XYor Z response then the answer could be more specific.

Q. "Was philosophy and morality always inherently tied to Martial Arts?"

This is highly unlikely. Martial arts has often been linked to philosophy, religion and spirituality, which is easy due to the serious nature of it. Many race tracks have chapels as the drivers risk death in every race. In martial arts we are constantly dealing with life and death so it is not unreasonable that a teachers religious or philosphical leanings might shine through. A martial arts school is also a forum where a teacher has absolute control over a captive audience, so if they were inclinded to preach this would provide a perfect opportunity.
One need look no further than Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) and Takeda (His teacher) to see that religious or philosophical ideas are not inherent to the art but rather specific to the practitioner.


Hope this helps,

Dao

 

Just to clarify about the heel palm question:
It is not impossible to kil someone by striking this point, however, it would most likely be either whiplash effect on the cervical spine or referral of shock to the brain, not penetration of the cranial cavity.


Dao

 

The Ultimate Question...

Hi Matt,

This is an absolutley fantastic idea and envy you for having the chance to do it!!!

I have a question....a question that would potentially solve the main question on the kung fu MAP forum......

The Origin of Lau Gar Kuen.

• 
  You will either
  
  1) increase the amount of hits to the site exponentially
  
  or
  
  2) solve the origin, its rumours and conjectures, mods would no longer be locking so many threads, everyone would stop arguing..
  
  Although I guess it wouldnt be Lau Gar without it
  
  Would be interesting though.
  
  Good luck Matt.
  
  May your journey be enlightening.
  
  C60

 

On a slightly different tangent their where documented matches and challenge fights between British wrestlers (mostly of the catch-as-catch-can variety) and Japanese Judo, Jujutsu and wrestling practitioners in the late 1800's/early 1900's/

With the result that Japanese people came to England over a 100 years ago to learn decent wrestling skills from Enlglish catch wrestlers.. how the wheel turned 60 years later when wrestling started dying out and Judo & Jujutsu became extremely popular in the UK and some the best catch wrestlers in the world at the moment are Japanese.

 

Though to keep in mind the socio-economic status of Chinese people in the UK 1800's, at that point they where second class citizens and any bare knuckle fight that would have taken place are likely to have been unwilling events!

 

hey yall, the southern jester here.

know this is supposed to be 'send me a question about martial art myth' format. having taken shotokan for a while i might be capable of answering some questions about that partiacular stlye and related questions.

DCombatives wanted to know about the origins of tang soo do. despite claims made tang soo do came from shotokan. dont take my word on this alone. get a book that shows the forms of tang soo do and a book that shows forms of shotokan. although they are in slightly different order and tsd has a form or two different the forms are for the most part exactly the same.

Shadowlynx83 wanted to know about the differences between okinawan and japanese styles of karate. this is kind of a generalzation yet more or less is accurate for most styles. okinawan karate (my friend practices shorin-ryu) retained more characteristics of chinese roots. there are more grabbing motions and more animal type postures (cat stance) and more open hand techniques (again chinese looking). the okinawan styles in general are more circular. japanese karate (like shotokan i took) is somewhat different. there is more blocking motion and less animal type postures (cat stance largely replaced by back stance). the japanese styles from what i have seen favor punching and sometimes (as with shotokan) are very linear.

Matt Bernius asked if shotokan was japanese or okinawan. the founder of shotokan learned the different styles of karate found on his native soil in okinawa. funakoshi combined the material and taught karate in japan. never did funakoshi call his 'stlye' anything other than karate. the name shotokan was created by his students. the name shotokan is a reflection of the name funakoshi used when writing poetry. (shoto) this info can be found in the biography of funakoshi titled 'karate-do,my way of life'. the book is excellent by the way.

Ed Morris wanted to know about the full rotation punch (horizontal) as opposed to the vertical punch. during my days in shotokan we used a lot of the horizontal punching. yet i have often heard (from chinese insructors ) the horizontal punch is not favored that much by the chinese and is considered inferior to vertical punch. dont know that for certain. what i do know is that in wing chun (which i took much later) the vertical puch was used. for me the vertical punch was far more accurate and i could actually hit much harder. not saying it would not be different for someone else.

about that rising palm strike to nose. took a hit like that sparring once. just got a bad nosebleed. when the doctor was looking at my nose after it got broken (different time and be punch) i asked about that myth. the doctor told me same thing as i have heard before just a myth.

last word to DCombatives. if whoever you know in tsd claims what i said about the origins of tang soo do being in shotokan i can break down each form from both and show you by moves and name they are with a couple of exceptions the same. then again take neither of our words for as much and get books with both forms.

 

hey yall ,the souther jester again. forgot something in last post. about where karate came from. again read funokoshi biography ' karate-do,my way of life'. in book funokoshi clearly states that karate came from chinese martial arts.
besides shorin-ryu and shaolin translate into about the same thing (minus suffix of ryu). the small pine forest way.

 

Why do you start every post telling us that you're the southern jester when we can all ready tell this by your screen name?

 

sorry madmonk108. wont start reply any longer with mentioning my name. had no idea it was annoying.

 

*blows dust off old thread* I must confess that I've only read the last page of this old thread. Nonetheless I'd like to address some issues raised back in page 6.

1) Records vs legends. Sure, records can be biased - but so can legends. Records are usually more reliable because, providing we have an ample amount of written records available, we can cross-examine records from various authors/sources. For example, although a lot of events today are being recorded from a conservative right wing POV there's also plenty of stuff out there written from a left-wing perspective. Future historians can cross-check records written by the right and left wings in an attempt to gain a more objective view of what actually happened. There's also physical evidence that can support historical records, which is part of the field of archaelogical science. For example, we know that the Crusaders mostly killed for the sake of killing - and indiscriminately so because archaeologists have uncovered many villages and towns, razed by Crusaders, despite the fact that these villages and towns had already converted to Christianity. Aside from written records, we know this is true because archaeologists have uncovered crucifixes and Bibles amongst the devastated ruins - and examining the damage done to skeletons and structures show that they were inflicted by Christian Crusader weaponry. We know that the Crusaders weren't interested in looting or pillaging because archaeologists have discovered treasures that have been untouched by invading Christian hordes. When we combine written records with excavated physical evidence, we can conclude that the Crusaders killed for the sake of bloodlust, and not for material greed. Legends on the other hand, have nothing that we can cross-examine it with and at best are dubious forms of evidence.

2) Why is there so much crap in martial arts today?
Because living in an age of sub-machine guns, we no longer have a crucible to continually test and refine martial arts in combat. In the old days, if your martial arts sucked and you were full of crap, you'd die horrifically in war. Today we don't use martial arts in battle, rather for civil self-defence. Therefore a lot of people are roaming around creating crazy martial arts styles/schools and making bogus claims. If a person claims to be teaching a traditional martial art, check their authenticity as you would any other claim - by cross-referencing their sources.

3) What scientific evidence is there for the existence of Qi (Ki)?
There are basically 2 main forms of Qi, which I refer to as "external" and "internal" qi. External qi is all about biomechanics. Leverage, torque, momentum, acceleration, decceleration, force et al. Internal martial artists speak of 'sinking' one's qi energy into and through the body's Dantian. Energy can be absorbed and conducted through an object and into the Earth, and vice versa - much like eletricity, which is another form of energy. When we absorb an opponent's force and sink it into our dantian and channel energy from Heaven to Earth or vice versa we are essentially using our bodies as conductors and conducting energy - primarily potential and kinetic energy - through our body and into the Earth where it effectively becomes "grounded." This is how internal martial artists are able to absorb or expel and incredible amount of strength/energy while still remaining soft and supple and without expending much of their own energy - such as when a Taiji practitioner can move your entire body with the tip of their finger. You can push all you want against that finger tip, but all that energy is being conducted through his/her body and being "Earthed" into the ground. It's a lot like watching a lightning rod getting zapped by lightning -- all those megawatts of electrical energy is simply getting earthed. Force has direction, and internal martial artists are able to redirect their opponent's energy back at them, using their own strength against them. It's similar to how a circuit may redirect an electrical current.
The other form of qi is 'internal' qi which is about controlling one's metabolism by primarily conditioning one's respiratory system, which in turn also conditions the circulatory system. Internal artists often speak of an internal energy field that flows around our body. This internal energy is produced by a small organelle inside our cells known as the mitochondrion. Mitochondria are the body's powerhouse. Fuelled by oxygen, they produce internal energy for our body primarily in the form of a chemical energy known as Adenine Tri-Phosphate, or ATP. The by-product of this is carbon dioxide. As well as martial artists, a lot of athletes also condition themselves in internal qigong (although they may not use this terminology). Swimming is a great form of internal conditioning as it is very effective in improving one's lung capacity and making your breathing more efficient. The more efficiently you breathe, the better your respiration/circulation, and in turn, metabolism. Runners do the same by training in high altitudes. This allows your body to conserve a greater amount energy when it is pushed to perform highly aerobic activities, such as swimming, running, cycling, fighting etc. As well as that, breathing meditation has also been demonstrated to assist in helping you to control your fear - more accurately, your body's response and reaction to fear and natural adrenaline rush (aka "fight or flight response). Studies have shown that meditation assists in keeping the breath steady in highly alarming situations, thus keeping the mind more calm - and results show a much greater increase in fight training recall (up to 90%+ improved recall in some studies). People who say "I learn martial arts but when I get in a fight, it all goes out the window and I just do whatever comes to me" are basically people who have failed to learn how to control their body's natural fear response. It is only natural to be afraid in a fight - you're an idiot if you're not. But breathing meditation assists in helping you not PANIC and thus lose control.

3) Okinawan vs Japanese Karate
As southern jester said, Okinawan Karate does retain more of its Chinese Kung Fu roots than Japanese Karate. It is comparatively more fluid and circular compared to the more linear and rigid nature of Japanese Karate.
To gain a further/better appreciation of this, I would recommend observing/trying some Fujian Kung Fu - which is the original source of Okinawan Karate, specifically a Fujian style called "Goroquan" which is written in the same Kanji as "Gojuken." Unfortunately this is a very rare and obscure style - but ANY other Fujian Kung Fu style is good for observing as they are quite similar to each other and you will clearly see the roots of Okinawan Karate in them. I personally find that Wuzuquan (Five Ancestors Fist) is easier to find - but this may vary according to where you live. Furthermore, southern jester mentioned that it was Funakoshi Gen who brought Karate from Okinawa to Japan and it was his students who subsequently created the school name "Shotokan" I believe that Okinawan Karate is largely credited to having been created by the Miyagi clan. I could be wrong on this.

And finally, one myth that I personally want to debunk is "the north kicks and the south punches." There's a myth that Northern Kung Fu is primarily about kicking and that Southern Kung Fu is about punching. I believe that this myth came about from the fact that the Northern Chinese are generally taller with a longer limb to body ratio than the Southern Chinese. One of my colleagues travelled to Beijing and other parts of Northern China recently and she was amazed at how tall the people were, and not typically short like a lot of Chinese immigrants in Western countries. I explained to her that a lot of immigrants here are from Southern provinces, like Guangdong, Hong Kong etc who are typically shorter than those who are from the Northern parts of China. Nevertheless, as a practitioner of Northern Kung Fu myself, I can assure you all that we don't exclusively kick and that we have an ample amount of punching and hand work. It's not as if Northern Mantis grapples with the feet! And Jiangrongqiao Baguazhang is almost entirely handwork with kicks being very rare. I've learnt 7 lines of the form so far and amongst them there's only ONE kick, and it's intended application is a leg sweep rather than a kick anyway. And I'm sure there are plenty of Southern Kung Fu practitioners here who will attest that Southern Styles don't just punch. The notion of "north kicks south punches" seems to be more prevalent in movies than in reality.

 

I don't know where Matt is with this project. But last I heard, he was monsterously busy with school.

In any event, someone asked about how philosophy, ethics, and the like came to be associated with martial arts. I don't have any definitive answers, but a couple of thoughts came to mind. They might be bunk. They might not. I won't pretend to know either way.

1) We like new fangled. If a Western boxer thanks God and his family for his success in the ring, we think nothing of it. If he describes all the hard work he did in the gym leading up to the fight, it goes in one ear and out the other. Whereas if a gung fu expert talked about Buddha, filial piety, and jamming his hands for hours at a time into hot sand, that strikes a chord. One strikes us as nothing remarkable. The other carries a sense of the exotic. Even though both essentially describe hard work, spirituality, and so on. The terms in which we couch something go a long way in determining how we register it.

2) Our conception of philosophy is a little skewed at this point. For the modern martial arts student, death isn't really an imminent and constant threat. It's certainly possible. But it's not something that really shapes my decisions on a daily basis. But if I were in an occupation in which either taking life or losing it were a reality, I expect I'd be a lot more mindful. Philosophy is a coping mechanism in a sense. If I were a samurai, for instance, would it be easier for me to believe that 1) I'm just one soldier in an army, and my individual death is unlikely to make much difference one way or another OR 2) I'm giving my life freely because it's my duty and because it brings honour to those I leave behind.

To me, it makes perfect sense that such people would want an ideological framework that supported the remarkable sacrifices they made (and continue to make, as modern soldiers still cope with these same circumstances in much the same way).

3) Martial arts training was generally part of a larger curriculum. That's not something that started with Funakoshi and the modern Japanese school system. Training with sword and bow, horsemanship, and other related disciplines have always been a part of the proper upbringing of members of a nobility. Whether it be the samurai, hwarang (and NO I don't believe in the history of Hwarang Do), or any other group of young nobles. They would have been taught religion, philosophy, literature, and various other subjects in addition to fighting. For precisely the same reason that modern universities insist on diversity in their curricula. Because their job is to produce well-rounded individuals.


Stuart

 

Thank You Dao.
I love the pragmatic and logical, or should I say Sane way you answer the questions posed. People always love to attach some mysterious supernatural qualities to everything they don't understand. Often, if given a choice of scientific and practical explanation or a supernatural explanation they will prefer to choose the latter.
Strange that

 

Just for clarity's sake, Dao posted that 6 years ago. I don't think he's still here.