Need help > Challenge me with Martial Arts Myths

thought I would help, this is a quote from the book 'A Dictionary of the MARTIAL ARTS' by Louis Frederic, translator and editor Paul Crompton


"Karate (-do) Kara, empty; Te, hand): Art of the empty hand. Formerly the name was ‘Kara (Chinese) Te (Hand)’: Chinese hand art (also called Tode; same meaning). The change was made by Funakoshi Gichin in 1936. Karate (or more exactly Karate-do) is a fighting art using only the bare hands (and feet) which has developed over the centuries. It began when the Chinese occupied Okinawa, part of the Ryukyu chain of the islands in the sixteenth century, and forbade the inhabitants to possess weapons; this interdict was repeated later under the Japanese occupation. This style of fighting was inspired by the similar Chinese techniques, which originated from those practised at the Shaolin temple by Buddhist monks. It was intended as a means of defending oneself from brigades and armed invading troops. At that time the peasants trained in secret and, little by little, they invented various techniques which enabled them to defend themselves against attack to good effect. Their centuries of contact with the Chinese also brought the Okinawans some knowledge of the rules and techniques of Chinese Boxing, known as Kempo. This was another system of fighting with the feet and hands, using striking techniques without actually grappling with an opponent. It was very effective in putting him out of action. Efficacy was indeed the order of the day in the martial art; the aesthetic and moral aspects played little or no part.

Etc…etc… "

 

I've always been curious how many injuries the averag person incurs in a street fight, thus giving us an idea of what sort of injuries should be accpetable in trainning for self defence.

The damn cartilige from the nose going into the hbrain from palm heel strikes, I've heard it both ways from people including medical students so I'm really not sure about it.

What was the role of Kata practice originally in Martial Arts? (Kinda the opposits of WCL's question).

Does TKD have ANY link to any Korean arts?

Where did the martial arts come from?

What would a MA lesson have been like in China/Thailand/Japan 200 years ago?

When did the dan system come into affect?

Why is there so much crap in MA technique wise today?

What scientific evidence is their as to the existance of Chi?

Who has the real Wing Chun?

Which art is practiced now in the manner closest to how it was practiced a 1000 years ago?

Where are their pressure points on the body and how hard do I need to hit them?

Was philosophy and morality always inherently tied to Martial Arts?

Is their racism prevalent in the Martial Arts today?

Are their any arts out their that have a history of rivalry?

Something looking into the removal of groundfighting from so many Trad arts would be interesting, seeing when it happened as we know from the MMA that groundfighting can not be completely dismissed regardless of what you do. Maybe asking why so many arts focus on either grapplingor striking but not both?

 

Ziro,

Thanks, although, MAN do I have issues with the translation-- see below

Chinese? Shouldn't this be Japanese? To my knowledge the Chinese never occupied Okinawa.

And there's a lot of evidence that the weapons ban didn't happen or rather was far more complex than simply everyone's weapons were seized.

I will be taking the Shaolin legend to task.

Yeah, I'll be tacking this too.

Thanks,

- Matt

 

Was Baguazhang truly a creation of Dong Hai-Chuan?


I have my doubts.

 

And I'm afraid some of it is just wrong.

The original ideograph was "China Hand", in other words, Chinese boxing. It was changed to "Empty Hand" later for PR purposes. Karate was practiced openly for quite a while. And, as far as it goes, the Japanese government wasn't terribly worried about it. Punching and kicking doesn't work against trained soldiers. Military weapons were carefully controlled. Field-expedient self defense weapons made from agricultural tools are no match for swords and spears and bows in the hands of professional soldiers.

 

My above post, was a quote I found, from the book I stated. I really have no knowledge on the issue, but thought it may help.

Anyway, all the best.

 

How's the research going on the "too deadly" one matt? I'm intersted to read your results. Someone recently posted links to Burmese boxing, and those guys go for it 100% with no gloves or padding whatsoever (it's not over untill someone gets knocked out 3 times, or gives up!). Modern medical facilities aren't great in many parts of Burma to begin with, and many of these events are held in sand pits in small villages where they are basicly non-existant. I think this punches yet another hole in the medical care argument. I find it hard to believe EVERYONE in China was just too wimpy to spar and used the "too deadly" excuse, especially when it's still going on in other parts of asia under similar conditions. Looking forward to the article.

 

I'm stuck right now in Japan. I've been trying to talk to a couple Japanese historians, but haven't gotten too far. Early evidence suggest that much of this ties back to the use of Martial Arts for physical education/culture.

- Matt

 

Cool idea, Matt. Here are mine:

1) "Don't wash your belt!" - where did this come from and how has it remained prevalent in so many MA's?

2) "Wing Chun was invented by a woman" - heard its not true, but where did the idea come from?

3) "MAS OYAMA IN BULL-KILL HORROR" - was this ever a headline?

4) What is the earlist example of "Learn the secrets of the deadly art" leaflets and advertisments? I have seen a flyer like this advertising ju jitsu classes in Liverpool from 1906. Are there any earlier examples?

5) "Jiu jitsu relies on using the opponent's strength against them". To what extent is this true in modern BJJ?

6) "Okinawan weapons are derived from farming implements". Why no axes, then. Everyone needs to chop wood, don't they?

7) Where did all the "death touch" stuff originate?

8) Where does the idea of hitting your shins with a bottle to condition them come from?

9) Has anyone ever had a thai boxing match with broken glass glued to their hand wraps? Maybe in Ancient Rome.

10) When did performing board breaks become part of some karate and TKD styles?

 

Thanks Matt.
We really do appreciate taking your own time and effort to research other member's questions.

Again, Thanks a whole lot.

By the way, you having a good time in Japan?

 

I am just coming out of my lurking state to say that this is a great project, and a big thanks to Matt, good results or not. Really good subject, too.

 

Excellent project Matt! How do you know who to speak too to get all the answers to these questions?

Plus do you think these people with unravel ancient myths?

Whatever you find well done. I m seriously jealous I could n't do something like this myself.

Here's a few for your list:

Is there any real evidence of Shaolin Master/Kung Fu Master who could walk through walls or other feats of supernatural power?

What would a traditional shaolin MA lesson look like?

As seen in Kill Bill - are there any combination of hits to pressure points that will result in death? (Don’t’ really need to know what they are - not planning on using that sort of technique)

Has there ever been a competition where a representative of certain styles of any MA compete and who won what etc? If not, has anyone every tried to arrange such as thing?

How these would be of interest to you as they are to me.

 

First of all, thanks for the encouragement all. I'll start publishing stuff after the first of the year.

As far as contact, I'm trying to build a network of experts through contacting people who have already published content and talking with very knowledgable folks on discussion boards. Sometimes I hear back. Other times I don't.

Perhaps my favorite quote on this subject comes from the pragmatic Master Pan QingFu, as quoted in Mark Salzman's Iron and Silk "If masters in the old days could really jump thirty feet high," he snarled, "then why the hell did they build staircases in their houses?" (p 108)

- Matt

 

Nice quote.

 

Origins of Martial Arts

I have read and been told by my Sifu, that, the martial arts came to the Shaolin Temple from Ta Mo. Now Ta Mo was suppossedly an Indian Prince. The first martial arts were \originated in India. and Ta Mo brought the knowledge with him to the Temple. When he was finally let into the Temple he seen that the monks could not do the long required meditation that was nessesary to attain enlightenment. Ta Mo being a student of Ch'an Bhuddism.
So he taught the monks some forms of excercise. I believe it was a style of dynamic tension exercise. Anyway he then had the idea to teach Indian Kung fu to the monks so he would have an army of warrior monks who could spread the teachings of Ch'an Bhuddism throughout China. These techniques were augmented by whatever hand to hand fighting that the retired generals and such that lived at the temple knew. So that is Where supposedly martial arts came from. Also there is evidence to support the fact that India was the birthplace of martial arts as there are still texts in existence that date back to before it was practiced in China.

 

Scientific Evidence of Chi

On the Discovery Channel there was a program on the evidence of Chi.They used the Shaolin Monk that opened the Shaolin Temple in New York to demonstrate. First they had a non-martial artist wired up to check his heart beat and blood preassure, they proceeded to stick his hand in ice water and monitor his vitals. Then they had the Shaolin Monk concentrate and direct his Chi to his hand and did the same thing to him as the non-martial artist. They noticed a real difference in heart rate and blood pressure of the Monk as opposed to the non-monk. He was also able to keep his hand in the water for a greater period of time. Oh yes they also monitored body temperature to show who was colder from this and ( of course ) the monk maintained a more stable higher temperature than the other test subject. So there is your "proof" as there is no machine to really test Chi or it's flow through the body.

 

Echoing everyone else this sounds like a great idea Matt. I'm looking forward to reading the first article. This might be jumping of into cloud cuckoo land but if your research is in depth enough and you gather enough material maybe you could consider trying to get a martial arts myth book published??? I mean it seems to me that there is a real gap in the market there...

Anyway, if you get through all the other suggestions I'd really like to see what you could find out about the actual relationship between Buddhism and martial arts. I realise its a huge topic given the amount of time and the amount of area's it effects. Still I'd love to see what you could find out!

 

frogman316 two things...

1. Your sifu is wrong about the origins of martial arts. If you want to understand why have a read of or at least look at the following links (in particular read Matt's last post on the first thread):

"Martial Arts Origins. India or China." *Read Matts post at the end!*
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44635

"Where did martial arts originate from?"
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34209

"True or False. Damo (Bodhidharma) brought Kung Fu to China?"
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24816

2. The program you watched on the discovery channel does not prove the existence of chi. It proves that people who train themselves properly can perform amazing feats.

 

I'm not sure where this is going. However, the first essay topic is going to be on "single points of origin for martial arts."

This one has been popping up all over the place and I think its time to tackle it. I'm targeting Jan 15 for the publishing.

- Matt

 

The story i was always told was that belt ranking was the result of early students gettting a white sash, and the level of dirt it acquired was supposed to reflect time training, hence, proficency. probably not true, but always been a little curious.