Necessity of traditional hand wrapping ...

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by Thaiger, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I mix and match. Most times I wrap. Other times I just have bag gloves or boxing gloves. Occasionally I go bare handed on the bag because I like to work palms, hammer fists etc and grabbing the bag as I hit. I bung some pre-emptove shots at the end of a session too.
    We spar bare knuckle in knockdown so you need to know what it's like hitting bare knuckled before hitting a person I think.

    There's no way I'd do a full Thai session on the bags and leather pads without wraps though.
     
  2. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    I train bare-knuckle. I have done so safely - for years. My hands are like a quality pair of leather gloves. I've never hurt my bone structure, ever.

    Mostly my training is more Muay Chiaya type nowadays. And also old-style bare-knuckle boxing (the Welsh style).

    When I was competing in Boxing and later in Muay Thai we used to do occasional raw-handed seshs. They opened a lot of folks eyes as to how you've got to pick your shots wisely without gloves.

    If you're a fairly serious amateur, semi-pro or your hands are 'tools of your trade' (including watchmaking!) then at least use bag gloves for heavy bagwork and pads - Most of the time.

    I've never like wraps. And only wore them when I was approaching a competitive bout to get used to the feel.

    And I've never seen the point of doing bagwork with just wraps either. As they tend to give you the worst of both worlds - In that they don't allow you to condition your hands. And they give you unrealistic binding of the fists and wrists.

    So unless the rules were 'Kad Cherk' (hands-bound) I had no use for that type of training.

    Most common hand injuries when hitting someone for real are the 'boxer's fracture'. And 'wrist-crimping' (your hand bends backwards or forwards 'crimping' your wrist - due to you not being used to the force transferal through your wrist without wraps and gloves to support your hands.

    If you're ever expecting to belt somebody in defence of your person...Then most folks get the shock of their life when doing so.

    You can easily learn to throw full-power bare-knuckle punches on pads, bags and people. And for long periods.

    It's just that the mechanics of the punches are slightly different (throw diagonal fists for forearm bone alignment).

    And you need to ease yourself into raw-handed punching slowly (So the skin can get thicker without tearing).

    You also need to do hefty grip work (to be able to keep 'fist integrity' and so your wrists can handle transference of force).

    I wouldn't expect my Thai Martial Arts training group to train for a whole session bare-handed. But I do make them do some bare-knuckle work. It keeps them honest.

    Overall it's not worth the bother for recreational trainers. Or for those competing on a regular basis.

    But for those of you who might have to use your primary tools (your hands) for self-protection - It's well worth giving some time to. As long as you don't go bleedin' berserk.

    Good Luck.
     
  3. Thaiger

    Thaiger Valued Member

    Plenty of great advice here,Thanks Russell !!

    :happy:
     
  4. Thaiger

    Thaiger Valued Member

    I do'nt get you,Do you mean something like walk into shots for some reason ?.

    :confused:
     
  5. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Because they make the shots you take hurt less, people work less hard to avoid them, or they take a shot from their opponent in order to set up a shot of their own, ignoring the fact that without the headgear, that shot they took would have left them on the floor. There's also some evidence to suggest that wearing headgear is worse for your brain because you take a lot of lighter shots which might be worse for you than a few bigger ones - in other words the damage is cumulative.
     
  6. Thaiger

    Thaiger Valued Member

    ...Thanks for that,I note now the recent news about the AIBA having scrapped these.

    ;)
     
  7. Thaiger

    Thaiger Valued Member

    SoKKlab's advice has got me thinking re hand conditioning.
    I note that many of the folk on here have experience with more than just MT and ask if anyone would care to throw in any advice on this.

    My own introduction to martial arts was through Shotokan Karate,and am looking at the makiwara now as a way of toughening up my fists.
     
  8. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    The AIBA never used the ones with a grill in front of your face. I think the jury is probably out on the net effect of the amateur-boxing style head guards, though personally I feel I get hit more wearing them and therefore don't like them.
     
  9. Thaiger

    Thaiger Valued Member

    Thanks,Yes,I meant headguards in general.

    I'd just read some stuff about the regular type being banned recently after some pretty exhaustive study as to their effectiveness.

    You could check this out at...

    No Boxing Headguards at 2016 Olympics

    ...There's a link in there to some hand wrapping stuff too.

    :)
     
  10. Teflon

    Teflon Valued Member

    I like bag mitts for pad/bag work, sparring gloves for sparring, no wraps at all during training. The theory being that this allows my arms/body to get used to hitting hard in the small bag mitts, and strengthen up. Hopefully they won't break when hitting a person in bigger gloves + wraps that way :p
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Do you even train boxing or Muay Thai?

    What do you think bag gloves are for?

    Guidelines for wraps:
    1) You can wear hand protection with out wraps and punch bag/pads.
    2) You can wear hand protection with wraps and punch bag/pads.
    3) You should never wear wraps without hand protection and punch bag/pad (this is because of the reasons I previously specificied about learning to punch too hard when you should not be).

    The only exceptions are if you are competing bareknuckle with wraps. There are a few NHB competitions, for example, that allow wraps, but no hand pads. They also allow head butts. They are not the normal competitive environment.

    Here is one article. Wish I could find one that discusses what I learned, that people who wear wraps only and hit heavy bags lose context, end up punching too hard with a false sense of security when in a real fight.

    http://punchingtechniques.com/punching-with-handwraps-only/

    The above article does support the point that you should never hit a heavy bag with just hand wraps on.

    "So leave punching with handwraps only to those wannabe tough guys who only work the heavybag once in a while."
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    IMHO, look at what you do day by day to acheive your longer term goals.

    For me it came with a realization that I wanted to develop my punches using around 70% effort to have penetrating, knock out power.

    When I first started at black belt, I could punch well but when under pressure, I would try to compensate with increased effort for more power. For example, say that when I started with 70% effort = 70% power and I thought 100% effort equaled 100% power. Then I hit a body builder and things changed... when I hit a body builder, I found out that 100% effort = about 50% power because I literally bounced off of him, with much of the force going back into me.

    Now I hit a lot harder than almost 20 years ago, when I was first black belt. My 70% effort punches penetrate much better and the force goes into the target, not bouncing me back. So 70% effort now = 90% power and 100% effort = 90% power. So going 100% effort doesn't really gain me anything because my structure is not maintained as well.

    My point being that proper technique can allow your punches to hit much harder, penetrate more, and with a lot less effort.

    It is very deceptive on how much power you get from proper technique and it is very easy to injure yourself because even with proper technique, we don't have PERFECT technique and we may still lose structure. Striking way harder than we think we are and injuring ourselves.

    It is best to start developing proper technique and build up on the power until you reach a point where you know how hard you can hit without hurting yourself and from that point you have to improve to hit harder.

    One time I was sparring with a professional woman boxer in training at our school. She was only 118 lbs but she caught me with a good right hook and I had to take a standing 8 count. She did not power through the technique, it was her timing and technique that did the work. So she could have knocked me out with punch, I just got lucky it wasn't this time.

    The way conditioning works is to not work full power (e.g. full effort) but to try to get the timing and technique to hit hard with less effort. That and knuckle pushups. :evil:
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You advocated beginners training with no hand protection in order to condition their hands in your original post - "Beginners, however, should be conditioning to be able to hit things properly... not learning bad habits of punching harder just because they have wraps on and not knowing not to punch that hard without wraps" - there's no mention of wearing bag gloves in there.
    This is not what you said originally. Not even close.
    Who in this thread has ever advocated hitting a bag or a pad with only hand wraps?

    You're not only misrepresenting the position of others, you've somehow managed to misrepresent the position you took earlier in this thread - that's impressive, even by internet standards.
     
  14. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Hello Thaiger

    Using a Makiwara to toughen your hands will often give a different result than say heavy bagwork. Usually - But not always - you'll get overt callusing. And if your conditioning is very heavy with makiwaras - you can potentially 'deform' your hand.

    When I say 'deform' this is not necessarily a criticism. Just that bareknuckle boxing you don't really want that. After all you want to rely on crisp elliptical shoulder roll and good punching mechanics. More than just having 'toughened' hands.

    I have no overt callusing on my knuckles. You couldn't tell that my hands were particularly conditioned unless you felt them.

    As important as 'conditioning' is strengthening.

    I would advise you - if you are going to pursue this - to strengthen your wrists and forearms with various types of crush gripping, plate waving and wrist-forearm leverage exercises.

    This is the way a lot of Ye Olde Tyme Bareknucklers got their wrists to the point they could handle the force transference. My Grandfather used to do Anvil Lifts and Swings etc to keep his wrists etc strong. This ensures 'fist and wrist integrity'.

    We do a conditioning drill called 'Hammer Drumming' - where you use lump hammers and coping mallets as if you're hitting with hammerfists.

    You can get similar effect from 'Indian' Clubs, Pool Cues and Metal Rods tied in bundles. And simple dumbells if used in the right way.

    Good Luck.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Here is my original post with parts bolded:

    That's a tough call on wraps. Others have given good advice but to give a different point of view. Wraps are not always good if these beginners are looking for self-defense in mind.

    Wraps add support against injury, but they can also allow for beginners to punch too hard without learning proper alignment and conditioning/strength. Then when they punch something without wraps, they injury themselves because they don't know any better.

    I pretty much discourage wraps for any training except when wearing competition gloves or if you are injured and need the wraps to help heal from injury.

    I think, once someone has trained long enough both with wraps and gloves, and without wraps with bag gloves or barefisted, then they should have a good idea of how hard to hit and let the technique do the work... then they can choose how they want to train.

    Beginners, however, should be conditioning to be able to hit things properly... not learning bad habits of punching harder just because they have wraps on and not knowing not to punch that hard without wraps. IMHO.


    hmmm,
    Guidelines for wraps:
    1) You can wear hand protection with out wraps and punch bag/pads. = and without wraps with bag gloves
    2) You can wear hand protection with wraps and punch bag/pads = with wraps and gloves.
    3) You should never wear wraps without hand protection and punch bag/pad (this is because of the reasons I previously specificied about learning to punch too hard when you should not be).= I pretty much discourage wraps for any training except when wearing competition gloves

    I may not have spelled it out but I'm consistent with my original post.

    What ever you think you read, may be a misunderstanding because I didn't spell it out completely. I can see how that is partly my fault. I also didn't think it necessary to explain how conditioning is done. Knuckle push-ups are part of conditioning as well as many exercises to develop good alignment for punching along power lines.

    Like I said above, I may not have spelled it out but I'm consistent with my original post.

    You did when your post did not agree with mine. :confused:

    You said,

    I don't even know where to begin tearing that apart. I need a TMA-induced-eyeroll emoticon.

    The only punching you should be doing without wraps is the kind where you stand in a line and punch the air. If you are having beginners hit any kind of pad without protection on their hands, as far as I'm concerned you should be legally liable for any injury they incur as a result.

    It's like having people spar without a gum shield so they know how hard they can get hit before they start swallowing teeth.


    You posted two opposing views and disgreed with what I posted. First you say you should always wear wraps effectively (and had to explain you didn't mean always in a later post when questioned about it). You also implied that hand wraps were hand protection by lumping the statement about always wearing wraps and the statement about "any kind of pad without protection on their hands"... if you consider wraps to be hand protection and you disagree with me that you should only wear wraps when also wearing gloves then were you not saying that it was okay to hit pads with just hand wraps on?

    I would say you are not being very clear. I had to ask where you get your information from. Mine is from Muay Thai and boxing mainly. But this seems to be a misunderstanding between us, rather than a disagreement. Not completely sure.

    Okay, that was a very strange comment from you. Answer these questions in your expertise in Muay Thai and boxing:

    1) How do you condition for punching?

    2) For self defense, what Muay Thai techniques and boxing techniques do you recommend training and which ones do you discourage (due to bare knuckle context) and why?

    3) When specifically do you use wraps in training? Do you ever just wear gloves and not use wraps? If so, when?

    4) Do you wrap hands using Muay Thai method or boxing method or some other method?

    5) What is it that you teach to beginners? Boxing, Muay Thai?

    6) When do you teach how to properly wrap hands?

    These are not questions for personal information so you should be able to answer all of them.
     
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Ok, we're in classic message board misunderstanding land, so let's just leave that there.
    Bag and pad work primarily, with separate grip and wrist training as supplemental work.
    I don't consider techniques in terms of the potential to break bones in your hand during a bare knuckled encounter - that is perhaps a reasonable criticism of the way I train, but my counter argument would be if I'm punching someone, it is because I fear a far more serious injury than a boxer's fracture and I will select the technique that maximises the potential to incapacitate my attacker.
    I normally wrap my hands at the beginning of the session and don't take them off again. But if I'm late/lazy, I'll put them on for any drill where I am striking a pad or bag full power, which is probably 80-90% of the striking drills we do.

    My method, which is more wrist heavy than knuckle heavy (If you want to call that the MT method, I wont argue).

    I don't teach, but when I show beginner's how to wrap their hands (normally after they've tried to do it themselves and failed), I show them the standard hand wrap technique that a thousand youtube videos demonstrate.
    As soon as they buy hand wraps.
    [/quote]
    These are not questions for personal information so you should be able to answer all of them.[/QUOTE]
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks for the post holyheadjch. We can compare notes.


    1) How do you condition for punching?

    - knuckle push ups
    - wrist curls (holding free weight and curling using only the wrist while arm braced on surface)
    - grip exercises and making fists
    - core strength exercises and back strength exercises
    - punching at around 10-20% effort/power hitting a striking pad (bareknuckle)
    - punching starting slowly and increasing speed on a heavy bag hitting at around 50% power (with gloves but no wraps). We call this speed punching, because we try to keep the bag "in the air at an angle" with the punches.
    - Punching barefisted with about 20-30% power into stomach and chest of each other (partner drill).

    Not particularly for punch conditioning, but worth mentioning:
    - working heavy bag (with gloves only or with gloves + wraps)... bag moving away works footwork and speed, bag coming at you works power
    - speed bag (with gloves or without gloves)
    - striking pads with partner (with gloves only or gloves + wraps)... start with pad holder mostly just holding a target... as ability to punch with more power safely increases, pad holder slaps the incoming punch harder as it comes in (this helps to developer power for puncher, when they are ready, and helps protect pad holder from injury).
    - Open hand striking on striking pad or bag (start with less power and speed, increase as appropriate)

    - drilling footwork, pivot points, structure, power generation methods, head movement, etc.


    2) For self defense, what Muay Thai techniques and boxing techniques do you recommend training and which ones do you discourage (due to bare knuckle context) and why?

    I discourage overhand rights/lefts and most long ranged hooks for bareknuckle. They hit hard (possibly too hard) and are hard to aim accurately, so bigger potential to hit a hard surface like an elbow or the skull.

    3) When specifically do you use wraps in training? Do you ever just wear gloves and not use wraps? If so, when?

    We rarely wear wraps but always wear gloves when working pads/bags with any power, but right now we only have amateur Muay Thai fighters training. When we had a professional woman boxer training under my instructor, she wore wraps and gloves always in training.

    Of course when going to smokers and ring fights we have wraps and gloves. We also can have wraps and gloves when doing very intensive training with punches.

    4) Do you wrap hands using Muay Thai method or boxing method or some other method?

    We primarily just use Muay Thai method.

    5) What is it that you teach to beginners? Boxing, Muay Thai?

    We teach both but in the context of Muay Thai.

    6) When do you teach how to properly wrap hands?

    Basically we don't teach wrapping hands to everyone. We always have someone that knows how to wrap correctly do the wrapping. The ones that need to know how to wrap are the corners, and so they learn how to do it correctly. Some of the fighters can also end up being corners and they learn how to wraps too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  18. Thaiger

    Thaiger Valued Member

    Thanks,I can see now the importance of developing good technique.

    Yup,Strengthening is what I meant

    I had a look at some old posts of yours and see that you got some of the ''Heavy Grips'' gadgets.I'm looking at these for myself.

    Am looking at some of the other Hojo undo equipment now,Namely Ishi Sashi/Chi Ishi

    ...Although I think I'll give the Makiwara :whistle: a miss.


    I'm guessing now also that the Kettlebell can offer something towards hand/wrist strengthening if used the right way.
     
  19. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Hefty Crush Grips are one of the foundation of strong fist integrity. They build finger, wrist and forearm strength. Really heavy ones work your whole body.

    Yes. Them or sledge hammers. I've a pair of heavy 40 pound sledgehammers. I sometimes do various grip and grip swinging work with them. Not just for bashing tyres.

    Yes any dumbbell, kbell or barbell can be used for grip etc work. Also you can wave plates (start with light 2.5 kgs) up down and around in an overhand and underhand grip. Same goes for metal rods, pool cues, hammers etc.

    My grandad was a bareknuckle 'carney booth fighter' in the early 1920s. He used to use anvils, 'locks' (post office door weights) etc for specific grip work.

    Good Luck.
     
  20. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Aside from breakage, there is the cumulative effect of spreading the bones apart over time (without proper wrapping)
     

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