Myths of the Samurai Sword v.s. the M1 rifle in WWII?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by slipthejab, Jul 24, 2005.

  1. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Well it's obvious our new member knows his stuff, after all why else would he feel the need to belittle people just because he doesn't agree with them?

    I look forward to his thoughts on the "katana".

  2. TheGraydon

    TheGraydon New Member

    Wow guys,
    I thought ninjas were solitary. I honestly just found this website by lookin up something I saw on tv. and I certainly didnt check to see if you had been talking about swords ten years ago or if this was a current convo. I am sorry if I hindered your social progression. Not my intention.

    Cheers guys,
  3. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    It is so telling that I can read three posts in to this thread and suspect it is old, then get that confirmed when I look. Like is this not debunked like ten years ago.

    Going by faith is going by what you would like there to be, not actual facts.

    And don't mix up the amount of foldings and the amount of layers.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Katana - nice sword, nothing special
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Please know that facetiously refering to someone you disagree with as "genius" won't win you any points here. And that referring to anyone here as "idiot" will quickly land you in a 3-day ban. Perhaps you should review the terms of service before proceeding.
  6. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    What if people *are* idiots? Do we have to just mentally remind ourselves of their status and move on? ;-)
  7. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience :)
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    It would certainly make my life easier. Won't somebody think of the ap?! :)
  9. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Hey interesting thread, glad I can contribute on topic of Japanese metallurgy. In fact Japanese metallurgy remained extremely primitive until the 19th/20th century due to a number of factors not the least of which was Japan's isolation. European and American steel weapon manufacture was far superior due to the industrial revolution and trade. Even China had far better natural resources to draw from for their weapons. That said of course Japanese metalworking was/is beautiful and ornate and extremely skillful and to this day Japanese smiths maintain that same level of craftsmanship with far better materials than in the actual ages of the Samurai. Simply put Japanese steel was rare, impure, and the "Japanese folding method" often ascribed to the Japanese blades is actually a Chinese innovation brought to Japan.

    But in the end Japan still made very good quality swords given what they had to work with (for the most part they got their iron from sand). Other countries weaponry used higher quality raw materials, better refinement, and thus did not require some of the smithing (e.g. folding) techniques or "tricks" used to strengthen the metalwork.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  11. AleahParcon

    AleahParcon New Member

    Found this on internet. "The steel in some swords is composed of thousands of folded layers." Any opinion about it?
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    They're better folded than my sheets and pjs?:thinking:
  13. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Yup, that would be true. However, please remember that 'folded to produce thousands of layers' is not the same as 'folded thousands of times'. Ten folds creates over a thousand layers.
  14. Steel Accord

    Steel Accord Valued Member

    This has probably been said already but the swords that were issued to the officers during WWII were actually of far less quality than their ancient forbearers. They were typically these mass produced weapons that were serviceable but not as sharp or durable as one that was given the traditional folded steel approach.

    It's doubtful that even a Masamune blade could slice a rifle barrel in twain, let alone the swords that were contemporary at the time. The theoretical swordsman would be better served by either disengaging and trying for a belly cut, if pressing the offensive or a kick to knock the rifleman on his ass and then leaping for cover, if going on the defense.
  15. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    It's true for antique swords. It doesn't make the sword better though. In feudal Japan, there was no decent steel manufacturing. Steel was created by smelting iron sand in a huge charcoal fire, and then collecting the clinkers afterward. In most other cultures, it would be considered garbage.

    That steel was also full of impurities, and the steel nuggets would be fairly small. In order to make a usable bar of steel, they'd make a big stack, heat it to welding temperatures, and hammer it flat with sledgehammers. then it was folded, and hammered flat again. This was done several times for 3 reasons.: 1) to drive out the impurities, 2) to make a more or less homogenous bar of steel, and 3) to burn away the carbon from 1.4 to 0.6 / 0.7% so that you could make a sword that wouldn't shatter.

    The folds themselves hold no magic, only crud :) . I've made hollow ground razors from broken antique katana, and inside I always found black layers of crud in between folds. Any bar of modern C70 or L6 is vastly superior to what a swordsmith would use to make a sword.

    The only reasons to fold steel since modern steel manufacturing arrived are tradition and aesthetics.
  16. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    My katana is l6 steel. It cuts just fine. Watermelons and gallon milk jugs fear me!
  17. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Nice one, Fruit Ninja.

    Woe betide anyone who actually uses a Japanese sword for, I dunno, actual koryu practice.
  18. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    That's what I have bokken for duh. ;)
  19. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    What koryu do you study?
  20. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Duplicated post
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016

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