Mysterious energy of Silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by venom_effect, Oct 18, 2006.

  1. redantkuntao

    redantkuntao New Member

    Steve Perry

    'I said "oxygen", and this is the vital essence of air. Without it, yes, you die in a few minutes (which means it comes first in my book) but most people don't really breathe particularly well, and that's what we are talking about here. The old adage is that those breathe with the throat don't know, and those who really understand breathe with their toes. Physically, this is nonsense, but the point is that deep breathing offers something shallow breathing does not.'

    i definately agree. breathing is an 'art' in and of itself, and there are many 'styles' of breath for health and for power. as i noted up, one thing that is does is stabilize the center of the body, in time with exertions. to be sure, good breathing does more than this but i am not really sure what, and and only able to see and feel the effect.

    'If you have a car that is designed to run on high-test gasoline and you feed it regular, it will operate, but badly. The key to prana, ki, chi, tenaga dalam, etc. is breathing. All the disciplines I have seen that involve these speak to proper breathing. They might not always agree at to what "proper breathing" is, but they all address is as vital.'

    breath technique is as vital an element as any other in the consideration of 'energy', and i do agree that in a sense that without it (good breath control) you essentially have 'nothing', especially as it pertains to 'qi'. however, dont you agree that without confidence all the breath technique in the world wont aid you in a situation where 'power' is required.

    'Biomechanics and confidence are indeed also very much a part of it. Spirituality is somewhat harder to dissect, but since there have been people who are able to manifest the same effects of these energies without the spiritual belief, then that isn't necessary per se. Might make it easier, but it isn't a requirement'

    could you explain what you mean by 'these energies'? i could assume but id rather not. i would quibble on the definiton of 'spirit' as it relates to this subject by saying that there seem to be a paradox between the 'spirit' of most religions and the 'spirit' of most martial arts.

    peace.
     
  2. rizal

    rizal Valued Member

    BTT...
    Tenaga dalam di Silat, by definition and meaning, is the as ki. Although it seems that Tenaga Dalam is used only in fighting, Tenaga Dalam is also used in health issues. The problem is, unlike the chinese, the indians, and the japanese, the practices are limited by show-and-tell method instead of a true research.

    Concerning spirits, well, it came from the nusantara animisme/dinamisme past, combined with Indian practices of meditation. Personally, I've seen only results that came from 'penempaan diri' through meditation and exercise. Never seen a guy who get it from 'jin' or 'roh'.

    Concerning breathing, remember the triangle of fire (fuel, air, and spark) which then can be applied as body mechanics, breathing, and will.

    Just putting My cepek
     
  3. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    air in, Air out ...

    Sure. There's a tai chi guy who drops round the online newsgroups, Mike Sigman. He and I don't agree about much of anything when it comes to economics or politics, but he demonstrates an ability that equals other serious players, and he does it with breathing and biomechanics, without any reliance on spiritual belief or "chi." He can pass the "Teacher Test," according to people I trust, and I have seen some of his videos which indicate to me that he knows what he is doing when it comes to movement.

    There are stories, probably most of them apocryphal, but enough of them verified, about ordinary people who, in a moment of crisis, perform what are considered superhuman feats. The classic one is of a child who becomes trapped under an automobile. His grandmother, without any training in anything, lifts the car off the boy enough for him to escape. She didn't pray to do it, nor did she have any confidence that she could -- I doubt the idea ever crossed her mind, and yet, in the moment, she was able to do it.

    This kind of event demonstrates a latent ability that, while it might be shaped and guided by factors such as exercise, faith, and self-confidence, does not seem to require any of these things to be manifested under dire circumstances.

    I'm not saying that faith and self-confidence aren't valuable assets, because I believe they are, but if somebody can do the things that supposedly require them *without* them, then they obvously aren't always necessary for those actions.
     
  4. AnakMurid

    AnakMurid New Member

    I think rage, sunlight and gamma radiation are the key factors. ;)
     
  5. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    being 'in the zone' I believe its called.

    I remember, and always will, the night I jumped up 14 steps in 1 go. My daughter screamed in her room when she was 2, both me and my wife ran for the stairs, she was right on my tail, one second we were both at the bottom of them, the next second I was at the top and she was still at the bottom. She swears she didnt see me move inbetween, just one second at the bottom, then at the top. I remember the feeling of the hairs rising on the back of my neck, and the sensation of "reaching deep" to get my legs to drive me up the stairs quickly ... but I cant explain how it happened I was THAT quick
     
  6. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member


    I tell you what put a bullet in your brain and then try to hold your breath for even 1 minute :D
     
  7. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Just a question, if you believe that prana and air are the same thing then if I were to connect a container to a vacuum pump and suck out all the air will that also mean that there is now no prana in the container and if so what does that tell us about space since it is a perfect vacuum?
     
  8. ember

    ember Valued Member

    There's no such thing as a perfect vacuum.
     
  9. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Science


    Not much. Space is not a vacuum. There are all kinds of things out there, in small amounts -- chiefly hydrogen, but also most of the other elements that exist in real time -- and, depending on what theory you accept about the cosmos, dark matter and energy which are deduced not because we can see them, but because we believe the stuff we can see isn't enough to cause the universe to behave as it does.

    If you believe that prana is not the same as air and that it can sustain human life, then you should be able to survive in the vaccum jar. I don't believe that, but you can give it a shot if you want.

    People used to talk about a mysterious force called "the aether," but nobody was able able to find it. "Phlogiston" turned out to be oxygen.

    I'm not saying that science has all the answers, but to postulate a mysterious energy like chi, ki, prana, or tanaga dalam if there are simplier answers available runs contrary to Occam's Razor. Nothing says you can't offer the theory, but nobody has proven it, and if you can duplicate the results with other means, then you have to accept that the atlernative theory, which you can prove, is at least as valid. (Scientifically-speaking, the alternative is more valid, because it can be replicated.)

    As for shooting yourself in the head, you miss the point. Air is a requirment for all human life, and proper use of it has been demonstrated to improve physical function, to make it more efficient. Bullets in the brain do not, and have nothing to do with anything anyhow. Straw man argument.
     
  10. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    True space is not a perfect vacuum and indeed a perfect vacuum can never be. However science often calls space a vacuum in which case they are talking about interplanetary space and its lack of gas. I’m aware that bodies of gases exist within space.
    Talking about the importance of breathing and inevitably the subject of prana or the energy thought to exist in the air should bring us to the question of the relation of prana to air. Is prana independent of the air or is prana air (gas) itself?
    Prana is independent of air, it is not in the air but beneath it. It exists in places where air does not (gaseous vacuums).
    This however does not mean that you can exist without air (physical) no more then you can exist without water.
    Something being more primary to the other does not mean that you can negate the other and still live.
    Those that believe that prana is air should consider the following:
    A yogi will tell you that you can absorb prana from the suns rays. If prana is air that would mean the suns rays is air would it not?
    Prana is said to travel through invisible channels in the body called nadi, if prana is air then these nadi would be visible would they not?

    As to air being more primary to the mind, that contradicts Chinese, Indian and Tibetan internal science. The energy in the body is motivated by the mind. By mind I do not mean conscious thinking but all its aspects conscious and unconscious or to use the Indian term I’m talking about manus being primary to prana.
    Lastly it also contradicts western thinking as we know the pumping action of the lungs is controlled and driven by the nervous system. The centre of which is the brain. If the nervous energy in your body was terminated you would die instantly however if you were to simply hold your breath you could survive, depending on your ability for a matter of minutes, unless you’re a yogi in which case, well we’ve all heard those story’s about being buried alive in the sand.

    How does this relate to training? Tenaga dalam is not simply a breath thing, it’s a mind breath thing.
    It requires coordination of mind, breath and body.

    Back to the question of what is most primary in a fight. I would say FOCUS, focus being the unification of diverse things. People experience this unification and refer to it as being in the zone.
     
  11. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Science versus Faith

    Well, that brings up another whole can of worms, doesn't it? If your cat has kittens in the oven, that doesn't make them biscuits. Because a yogi (or anybody else) says you can absorb prana from the sun doesn't make it so, nor does it prove the existance of prana. Burden of proof lies with the affirmative.

    Before there were "natural philosophers," i.e., scientists, people looking for explanations of various phenomena came up with all kinds of theories to explain them. If they saw lightning and heard thunder, then this might be a god beating his wife. If there was a solar eclipse, it was a dragon eating the sun -- which was maybe being pulled behind a chariot by Apollo ...

    As mankind learned more about how things worked, some of these old theories fell by the wayside. My point when we started this discussion was that there is a natural explanation for much of the mysterious, and that would include things like prana, chi, ki, and tenaga dalam. I offered that the mysterious magical force that permeated folks was likely oxygen, from the air. The element Oxygen wasn't properly discovered until the late 1700's, so before that, the life-giving properties of air weren't understood. People called it other things because that the best they could do.

    And there is much value in these ancient philosophical and physiological systems, no question, some good, pragmatic stuff, but they are less science than guesswork. Being pre-germ-theory of disease, they didn't know about bacteria and viruses and the like, and the best they could do with what they had.

    We no longer believe the Gods live atop Mt. Olympus, nor that flies come from rotting meat. The old makes way for the new.

    The logic here is specious. Western thinking understands a lot about anatomical systems, though certainly not everything. Unborn babies thrive and survive in their mothers' wombs without their lungs pumping air. We are creatures of flesh and the systems that make it up work in certain ways, but lungs can be artificially driven by machines, the brain can be dead, and people can survive for years. Turn the air off, however, the patient dies.

    I don't disagree with this. Breath alone is not enough. But it is primary. Everything else comes after it. No breath, no brain, no mind, no body.

    So far, nobody has demonstrated that tenaga dalam (or chi, ki, or prana) will allow the user to do anything that somebody properly trained cannot do without calling on those mystical energies.

    If one can duplicate magic with science, then it might not be so magic.
     
  12. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    From the late lamented Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light:

     
  13. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    I cannot scientifically prove that Prana exists but that does not mean that it doesn’t exist either. Science does not know all the facts and answers but I firmly believe that one day much of what the yogis believed will be scientifically proven, including the existence of prana.
    I still believe that mind is primary to air and that prana is independent of the air, all my studies and experiences have brought me to those conclusions. Does Science know what the mind is fully, is the mind created by and exist within the brain or did the mind form the brain and use it as an instrument to make thoughts physical?
    We are getting into this whole breath thing a little too deeply for what would be needed in our training.
    However on the subject of breath Science will tell you that the lungs breathe and that’s about as far as they go. I would go further to say that there are actually eight winds (breaths) which operate in the human body and that the whole body is involved with breathing at any one time i.e. the brain, heart, lungs etc all continuously opening and closing in a state of breathing. What would Science say about what I just said….bollicks, however that will not stop me from knowing what I know to be true ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2006
  14. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Prana

    I didn't say prana doesn't exist; I said nobody has proven that it does. And that, with training, centered around breathing and with good biomechanics, people who don't believe prana exists can duplicate some of the feats that are attributed to prana.

    I stipulated that science doesn't have all the answers. But it has some of them. And one of them is that some things, at least, that people attribute to unknown forces can be laid to reasons that are known. Occam's razor.

    Recall the Yellow Bamboo folks? Who claim that they can stop an attacker without touching him, using their version of The Force? They put out videos showing this. Thing is, it only works on other Yellow Bamboo students. I saw a vid wherein a BJJ player from Australia, who flew to Bali, demonstrated that he was unaffected by the senior student's invisible energy -- he tackled the guy and took him to the ground without pause.

    You could have a point about mind being primary to everything, especially if you have a solipsistic view of the universe. It could all be an illusion.

    And no, science doesn't have all the answers down. But science requires that when you offer an answer, it is subject to replicable experiment.
    Just because we don't know how something works doesn't mean we throw out any explanation we like and expect people to believe that it is true.

    I hope that you are right, that someday science will discover that ki, chi, tenaga dalam, prana, whatever you wish to call it, exists, and figures out ways for us to utilize the force. Until then, the laws of physics as we know them don't have a working spot for such energy, and it remains a spiritual theory for which the scientific evidence isn't convincing.
     
  15. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Tenaga dalam is not spirituality.

    These waters get very muddy imo.
    For me qi or tenaga dalam is merely the language from the past used to describe and allude to a holistic mental/body state. It may or may not contain spiritual elements as that factor depends on the individual's belief structure and life-view.
    The science of the past looks quaint from the perspective of today, and yet the understanding we have today has its roots in the past. History and our perspective of time is linear ;) .
    To dismiss tenaga dalam, prana or qi as merely hocus pocus misses the point.
    The person who believes they are exhibiting these energies or phenomena, may not have the scientific understanding to describe what they think they have, which viewed through the lens of modern science could/might be explained as a combination of mechanics, electro-magnetic fields and chemistry.
    Take for example when we catch a ball. Not everyone has the understanding of mathematical language and concepts to describe the process using the calculus ... but they can still catch the ball! :D That same person would have to draw upon their own experience to describe the process, and if no one can speak the language of the calculus the language that has the greatest empathy to a society's world view would probably become dominant.
    The lens of modern perception and understanding might also discover that there are elements to the whole (of that which was described as qi etc), that are surplus to the requirement to duplicate a phenomenon such as catching a ball etc.
    Often we rationalise extraneous elements into our world view because we are ignorant of the science or under-pinning logic. We use the language of our individual experience, and we run the risk of being misunderstood.

    Salam,
    Krisno
     
  16. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Magic and Science

    I agree. The idea of inner power comes from a time when they didn't have the tools to understand or explain it, and they were simply doing the best with what they had. I don't fault anyone for that.

    Again, a good point, and no argument.

    Well-put, and valid, as far as it goes. But there do exist mathematics and physics to explain how throwing and catching the ball work, even if many people don't know why. So far, the explanations for tenaga dalam or prana, ki, and chi fall mostly into two categories -- 1) It can explained by anatomy, physiology, physics, chemistry, mathematics as a natural process; or b) it's a mysterious, magical energy that cannot be measured, and works against the laws of physics as we believe them.

    I don't for a second believe that there is anybody on the planet who can, with a wave of his hand and an extension of his inner power, knock me down across the room -- unless I am in league with him. Voodoo curses work because the person cursed believes that it will work. Non-believers, it bounces right off.

    By the nature of the statement, the magical stuff requires faith, because science and magic -- real magic -- don't mix real well.


    This has, as far as I can tell, be done. No reputable scientist would disavow the idea that there are things science hasn't nailed down. There are theories which scientists believe, but which they have not been able to design and experiment to prove. All kinds of subatomic particles or odd rays that are so small or short-lived that nobody has been able to record one, even though they postulate they should exist.

    Maybe tenaga dalam falls into this category.

    The point is that nobody has been able to find any evidence for the effects of ki, chi, tenaga dalam, etc. that can't be explained with things like focus, biomechanics, breathing, and the like.

    In this country, when you hear the sound of hoofbeats, you don't look for zebras. Maybe in parts of Africa you do.

    I'm fine with somebody saying "Tenaga dalam is inner energy." The problem arises when they try to explain what it is and go off the reservation into explanations that can't be proven.

    Yes. But I don't think in this case that I'm misunderstanding what is being said. There might be an invisible fire-breathing dragon flying around over my house whose wings cause the winds to blow, but I don't believe there is -- nor is there any reason to believe it. If you say there is, then I need some kind of proof, since I have a better explanation of why the winds blow ...
     
  17. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Coming full circle ...



    Steve, you are correct. I think that a discussion of this nature requires a broad agreement to define the limits of conjecture, but that can be difficult as well. In what realm do we seek to define tenaga dalam, qi or prana. The magical or the practical? Of course there is disagreement as soon as any individual's practice includes the concept of magic as an ordinary occurrence.
    The Yellow Bamboo folk you mention, aren't displaying that which I would call tenaga dalam. Like you I am unable to see that particular invisible fire-breathing dragon. :D

    Venom Effect, tenaga dalam, being in the zone (as someone mentioned), is a natural phenomenon and is not unique to silat. It arises in anyone with enough correct and focused practice.
    Is there such a thing as correct practice? There is, but ask a footballer, a Formula One racing car driver, a ballet dancer or even a martial artist and you will get different answers. Heck, ask on a silat forum and you'll still get different emphasis on what is primary :p .

    Salam,
    Krisno
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2006
  18. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Salam Mas Krisno and Brother Steve,
    Honestly, I'm agree with both of you...:)
    Proofing something beyond our imagination sometimes is very difficult, even when we have the imperical evidence that exist, but yet to anlyze the event intellectually and scientifically can be very difficult. Allow me to changes the subject for a moment.

    I can give one example: It happened many moons ago while I'm doing the sightseeing in South Asia. We were in a place that we are not suppose to be, and we were under hostile fire. Heroically, one crazy pilot bring down the bird in the hot zone, the bird was taken shots while he is in stationary position on top of the trees. We are frantically hook-up our McGuire rig to our body and being pull up, in the mean time, the green flashes pointed to us and the bird. I can feel the hot gas/bullets passing by.

    To make a long story short. The bird was ruttlen several times adn started to smoke, and to make a matter worse she started to slowing down and run out of fuels. The pilot able to bring down (crash landing) the bird bomb crate about 5 klicks from the nearest firebased. (the pilot later was awarded the Distinguish Air Service)

    The next day, we were being informed that the bird taken 110 shots, one big hole presumed from the unexploded RPG, and the fuel tank was empty with several bullet holes in it. The mechanic said, they was puzzled, how this bird can fly after taken those shots. The bird was beyond damage and its suppose to be down and burn.

    In this case we were several times lucky, no one get shot from the NVAs and not being shotdown while riding the helo that not suppose to be able to fly.
    Try to explain that to the masses.....
    Tristan
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2006
  19. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    The pucker factor!

    Salam Mas Tristan.
    Over here we say that a hot extraction rates high for the pucker factor. (The pucker factor = when the anus tightens because of fear :D ). Now that is being in the zone ... big time.
    Coincidently, the classics also say to tighten the grain path when wanting to manifest qi!

    Cheers
    Krisno
     
  20. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    LOL!
    Sometimes your body discharge a liquid without your command :D
    Tristan
     

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