My theory regarding BJJ and Japanese Jiu Jitsu

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by GojuShotokan, Sep 22, 2014.

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  1. GojuShotokan

    GojuShotokan Valued Member

    Why does Japanese Jiu Jitsu normally lose to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    My theory as to why Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is more likely to win in competition against Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Before i begin i would like to say i'am being completely unbiase when doing this analyzation, i genuinely was interested as to how Jiu Jitsu has never actually won against BJJ before, Catch-Wrestling, Submision Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Collegiate and Freestyle Wrestling are all fighting systems that are predominantly based upon grappling techniques whether it's throws, holds and locks or control and restraining techniques these are all generally grappling based and all of these fighting systems one way or another have defeated Brazilian style Jiu Jitsu at one time or another, yet I have never heard of Tradition Japanese Jiu Jitsu systems ever actually winning against Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and this drew my curiousity quite a lot, why is it so difficult for these Japanese forms of Jiu Jitsu so difficult to win against BJJ fighters.

    After looking at how they are all trained i have come to this conclusion: Japanese Jiu Jitsu is not designed for competition, it's typical syllabus in most Japanese Jiu Jitsu clubs is the normally thing's like; Defence against a double wrist grad, defence against a side-headlock, defence against a front strangle, very effeciant for ending most street attacks quickly and effectively and most of all realistically (nothing flash just practical).

    While if i make the comparison to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu the sort of thing they teach is that you can nuetralize virtually any unarmed street attack by simply taking the opponent to the ground and sinking in a choke or restraining the opponent till help arrives. while this prolongs the fight which is not always the best decision it does technically give the individual the advantage as it's like a crocodile dragging it's prey into a river, the street thug is out of his element and is now in the BJJ practitioners comfort zone, as he/she is more familiar with the ground fighting than a street fighter that is more likely to be comfortable just swinging for the fences.

    Anyone who has watched grappling matches knows that it normally ends up on the ground and while Japanese Jiu Jitsu is meant to finisg the fight quickly and effectively using as little wasted movement as possible the Brazilian stylist is trained to fight on the ground giving the Brazilian practitioner the advantage.

    The second one is that Japanese Jiu Jitsuka train for a real life encounter while Brazilian Jiu Jitsuka train 50% street and 50% competition and therefor are more conditioned and trained for competition against grappling techniques that a Japanese stylist could normally use the subdue an untrained fighter. So in a way with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu you're not only trained to deal with street attacks but also with grappling techniques used in other martial art systems.

    This is my theory as to why Brazilian Jiu Jitsuka tend to defeat Japanese Jiu Jitsuka normally because they are simply more trained for competition than Japanese styles like Hako-Ryu or Kito-Ryu because they are not only taunt simple methods for fighting street attackers but also other forms of grappling systems.
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Street vs Sport is a long dead issue I won't touch here

    The reason they win is because they train against resistant pressure consistently - pretty much end of discussion.

    Judo had the same success in the 1886 Police Tournament for exactly the same reason
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    BJJ wins because they have all those patches.
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This guy must be LETHAL then!!

  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One simple technique honed against resistance is more reliable than 20 deadly techniques honed against a static partner.
    It's that simple really.

    In an ideal world the best fighter would be the one that could hone deadly techniques against resistance but there's no reliable way of doing that day in day out.

    That's the essential dichotomy of martial arts.
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I've got a friend who is a 2nd Dan in JJJ. He started training with us and his since said that "yeah, I can't use any of my techniques because we didn't do much sparring, and the sparring that we did do was always semi-contact".

    As to "taking it to the ground and ending it as quickly as possible" I ask you this:

    Do you really think that a BJJ fighter is looking to prolong any confrontation?
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    that is actually not what you get taught in bjj. there are many benefits of training with resistance: learning to properly implement a technique, learning the ability to transition, learning what one can or cannot do, learning how to deal with adrenaline, the physical improvements from training this way, etc. as per a previous poster, these lessons were learned in the 19th century--see judo.

    what one does with those techniques is up to the individual.

    trust me, if i get caught up in some drunken buffoon's world some saturday night at a pub, i'm not going to drop into spider guard and try to triangle the guy.

    you should think about some of the assumptions you're making before making posts like this.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
  8. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Of course not. The buffoon isn't wearing a Gi so you would use a rubber guard set up the triangle.
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm as pro BJJ as the next man but some of the main failings promoted by the BJJ for self defence crowd (Rener and Ryron for example) are voluntarily taking the fight to the ground and having ample time once you are there to bide your time and wait for the guy to get tired and make a mistake.
    Those two things go against what pretty much every other self defence advice out there.
    So it's not like the view expressed by the OP is made up from nowhere.
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    2003 called and it wants its thread back!

    I'm honestly not sure if I should bother or not.
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Welcome to my world!
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Do it! ;D
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i still think it's a straw-man argument made by people who don't understand the point of training with resistance. and the reason the argument survives is mostly because of marketing.

    the real problem is that there's a ton of junk being marketed to people in the name of "self defense".
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    here's a video to think about. i generally like kesting's videos in general. but this video and the others in the series i think do a good job of laying out some principles of using grappling outside the gym.

    [ame=""]BJJ Self Defense Lesson 1: Proximity, Panic & Claustrophobia - YouTube[/ame]

    just a data point for us to consider.
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Kesting's point about proximity and body contact is spot on.
    But getting used to that doesn't have to be BJJ dependent. And getting used to that proximity doesn't then lead onto opting for groundwork as a first tactic or being content to stay down there.
    I remember a drill from somewhere (Iain Abernethy maybe?) where mid padwork the instructor would call out and then every one had to square up and eye-ball/stare at their partner. Just to get used to that level of eye contact and direct challenge.
  17. GojuShotokan

    GojuShotokan Valued Member

    if Judo proved that sparring made there grappling skill better than any form of Japanese Jiu Jitsu then why did they not add Randori to Traditional Jiu Jitsu practice?
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think there are a few reasons for that.
    Some cultural, some practical, some historical, etc etc.
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Traditional Jujutsu includes randori, ryu-ha dependant of course.
  20. GojuShotokan

    GojuShotokan Valued Member

    doesn't that mean that under Judo style rules a JJJ practitioner has a good chance of winning against a BJJ practitioner?
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