My Program: Please Critique

If your replies weren't essay long, I might actually bother to read them.

 

At this stagein yoru traning all the stabilization exercises wouldbe covered by doign a standing military press. Your body is still learning to fully maximize its potential at this stage so specialization is not yet needed.

 

If you're not constantly adding weight to the bar, you're not getting any stronger. If your body can handle 225 pounds in the squat for 5 reps, sticking with it isn't going to do it: you need to go to 230-235-240 etc.

And like I said before, if you work out hard enough, you shouldn't have much energy left to do those supplemental exercises. If you're military pressing 225 pounds for reps, do you really think a 5lb weight used for external rotation exercises is going to strengthen your shoulders anymore? That's like doing squats with 500+ pounds that drill you into the floor, then deciding to do leg presses: completely unnecessary.

Far from it. My recommendation was try working out in a routine where you push yourself far beyond what you might now be capable of. Once you're done with that, you're free to do what you wish so you can add in 100 supplementary exercises if you choose.

Well, first of all, you claim to have worked out for 4 years but your numbers are not impressive at all to be honest. Hate to break it to you, but unless you are actually moving serious weight (in the realms of 200-300 pounds for most upper body movements, 400+ squat, and 500+ deadlift), you have absolutely nothing to worry about anything.

Secondly, what is the rear delt row aside from a bent over row that's just slightly higher up? Nothing. You can move almost equivalent weights if you work at it hard. Personally, I find it unnecessary once you're doing such things as cleans, high pulls, and snatches. As for the Kelso shrug, one of the best back exercises you can do to improve your main lifts (which should be the focus of supplementary exercises, not attempting to rehabilitate healthy joints) as well as strengthen your back from a different angle.

How about showing us lots of evidence of those who have been lifting for years who now suffer horribly from all sorts of muscular imbalances and weaknesses? There are always those who are less or more prone to injury. For example: My O-lifting coach Alex is definitely less, Mark Phillipi is more. Alex once fell 30 feet out of a crane, landed on his feet, and was in the gym doing "light snatches" with 110kg the same day. Mark Phillipi tears something every time he does strongman. You're so worried about the shoulders, but what about the knees, the back, the hamstrings, the hip flexors, etc. etc. ALL things that can be injured as well? Do you propose to do rehabilitation exercises for every single joint and muscle group you have?

To be honest, it's your body and it's your life, just don't be surprised when the gains you make aren't quite what you expected. Meanwhile, I'll go back training with guys who have "muscular imbalances" and who bench 530 raw and deadlift 700 pounds at a BW of 211.

 

Agreed, to a certain extent. Except, when did I say I don't plan to add weight to the bar?

I work out plenty hard. I don't train to failure though, and there's no reason to. As such, I always still have some energy leftover to do something else.

Yeah, I get that, but once again, what's your point? Are you even making a point? Cause it looks like you're just randomly saying "Workout really hard and then try those exercises", which, I hate to break it to you, doesn't prove anything.

I never gave you numbers if you'll remember. I did give %'s of my bodyweight. I weight about 195lbs. First off, it's pretty ignorant of you to hold everyone, regardless of bodyweight, to the same standard of weight. I know guys who can deadlift 500lbs, but that's less than 2x their bodyweight. Even though I lift almost 100lbs less than them, it's more than 2x my bodyweight. As a strongman I can understand that you think in absolute strength terms like that, but I don't want to be huge and strong, I want to be lean and strong. Relative strength is more important to me.

You can move almost equivalent weights if you work at it hard? It's a supplemental exercise. It's not one of the basic, large compound lifts. To me, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's anything other than that.

Also, I specifically stated, a few times actually, that improving my big lifts was one of the main reasons I was adding supplemental exercises. I'm amused by how much I have to repeat myself in this thread. Let me list my reasons for them again...

Stability: Balance between all the different muscles that control the scapula and thus lead to healthy shoulder function.

Strength: by creating strong balanced shoulders capable of bearing higher loads, I can improve some of my big lifts, like bench presses, dips, overhead presses, overhead squats, etc.

Size: Like I said, I don't want to be hooge and strong, I want to be lean and strong. With a low body fat %, hypertrophy of some of the small muscles that control the scapulae leads to more definition in the upper back.

Posture: When the muscles of your shoulder are balanced and you don't have excessive tightness and muscle impingement, your posture improves and you can improve problems like internal rotation of the humerus, and forward leaning of the head, to name a couple.

Safety: Last but not least, strong stable shoulders are less likely to be injured, acutely or chronicly, than imbalance shoulders with muscle weaknesses.

Nobody has even come close, not even close, to debunking a single benefit of a couple supplemental exercises with each workout. The closest anyone has come to something resembling an argument is Koto's "You'll be too tired to do those exercises". Well, that's simply false, I don't know how else to put it. I can do a heavy set of deadlifts and still have juice for a couple more exercises before I do rows and dips. I don't train to failure, I don't train with humongous volume (10 sets of 10 or something ridiculous like that), I have my diet in order, I supplement properly, I use pre and postworkout nutrition, I get plenty of sleep every night. It won't be a problem. I've already tried a few sample days of my workout, I got through them just fine. The only one I'm really going to have a problem with is my Sunday circuit.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1005505
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1035054
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1339581
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1269171
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1076897
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1128603
http://www.pponline.co.uk/forum/talk-injury/shoulder-injury-2
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/fitness/messages/667.html
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2028501&highlight=shoulder+injury

If you search around for people with shoulder injuries, you'll find 'em by the dozen. Some have been lifting a long time, some haven't. Some suffer complete disclocation, some just have minor impingement. The fact is, the shoulder is a very mobile joint, it's not built for stability. We have to train that stability, or that ROM comes with a price.

My friend Richard has been lifting for years. He wrestled for 10 years, he benches over 300, and deadlifts over 500. Last month we were working out together and he dislocated his right shoulder on a warmup set of overhead squats. We were only using 95lbs, and on I think his 3rd rep his shoulder popped and he dumped the weight on the catches. He's scary strong, but unfortunately his shoulders were scary imbalanced and they couldn't properly stabalize the load as he went down.

You could also e-mail Mike Robertson or Eric Cressey over at T-Nation and simply ask them if they have worked with very many people who've lifted big for a long time and suffer shoulder imbalances. I'm sure they'll get a good laugh out of it.

Knees - I make sure I have a balance between my quadriceps and my hamstrings, and I'm also training unilateral movements and throwing in extra hip abduction and adduction, which will all ensure I have a strong, balanced stabalizers with my leg. You'll never get that with only doing the "big, basic" bilateral lifts.

Back - I use proper form with all my lifts, I never stretch my lumbar spine (One of many reasons why Yoga sucks), and I train for balance between my erectors, my abdominals, my hip extensors, and my hamstrings/glutes to prevent anterior or posterior tilting of the pelvis, which can lead to either excessive lordosis of the spine or increased risk of disc herniation in the lumbar region.

Hamstrings - most people have problems with their hamstrings because they suffer from anterior tilting of the pelvis which leaves the hamstrings in a permanently stretched position, leaving them prone to tears and strains. I train for a neutral pelvis to avoid this problem, and many others. You'd be surprised how many people suffer from this.

Hip flexors - again, it all comes back to avoiding excessive tilt in the pelvis and balancing the muscles that can contribute to this tilt.

I don't do rehabilitation exercises. I structure my program so that I never have to rehabilitate. I'm strengthening the muscles necessary for balance and stability, which will at the same time make me a safer lifter and a stronger lifter. What a ridiculous notion, right?

 

Never mind, you know it all You're just disappointed people weren't showering you with compliments over your program. Good luck with what you try to do. I recommend keeping a log though, preferably one which we can see. You might see a difference between what you hope to achieve and what you actually achieve.

Also, accredited sources are different from article submissions to popular training sites. But hey, your program is high-tech and perfect, what do us old-timers know?

 

Hmm yeah I guess we old timers are relegated to busting our butts again doing reps for 300 and up in the squat and deadlift and helping those who actually wanna learn from real life experiene and not just knowing a bunch of theory.....
and having that occasional beer or wine

 

Just 300? You must be getting old

 

Yeah am getting old.... the bar is gathering rust

By this or next month I'm targetting to break my 5RM PR in the squat and deadlift

 

No, I don't know everything. I don't claim to. I know that with any given opinion I have, or statement I make, I could very well be wrong. However, the only way I can know that I'm wrong is if someone can prove it to me. I don't just go changing my mind and my opinions on a whim because someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about.

If you could make convincing arguments as well as you can make sarcastic remarks, you might have changed my mind.

Someone who devotes years to studying a topic is pretty well accredited to speak on said topic. You'll also notice that the majority of articles on T-Nation make extensive reference to scientific studies related to whatever topic they happen to be talking about.

Something you need to keep in mind before you knock "theory" (also known as scientific research) and think that experience is superior.

Bruce Lee had years of training and lifting experience. He still didn't really know a lot about it.

Many professional bodybuilders have tons and tons of experience in the gym. At the same time, many of those professional bodybuilders don't know a lot about lifting.

Your average high school weight coach has been lifting and teaching for years. Your average high school weight coach also thinks that your knees will explode if you squat below parallel, tells the girls to do high reps to tone up, thinks that training aerobic endurance for anaerobic activities (Jogging miles at a time to prepare for wrestling matches), etc.

You keep committing the logical fallacy argumentum ad verecundiam, the appeal to authority. Your argument is basically "I've been doing this a long time, therefore I'm right". You seem insulted that I don't accept that as a legitimate argument. I ask for proof, and instead of providing it, you try to attribute childish motives to my posts and refuse to provide what I asked for.

I'm open to being proven wrong, I'm not immune to a good argument. There's just been a severe lack of them in this thread, and as such I'm left unconvinced and my interlocutors are left frustrated.

 

Do you want to get stronger, or do you want to get a phd in fitness? All the info you are quoting means sfa in the grand scheme of things.

Get yourself a good coach, and religiously follow what they tell you. Its soo much easier to work yourself into the ground, when you dont have to think about every single thing you are doing.

Overcomplicating things is the easiest way to fail there is. Inertia is developed by knowing too much, but not know where to start.

 

Good luck. Keep me posted via PM, as I'm no longer posting in this thread. The individuals who try to leap hurdles before they can walk but won't listen to others are dooming themselves. I made the effort, but I won't keep repeating myself.

 

koto ryu- you can join the club " those willing to offer years of actual training experience to those who refuse to accept"

membership is growing

 

Sounds good