My Program: Please Critique

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Socrastein, Mar 20, 2007.

  1. cxw

    cxw Valued Member

    And those people should look to address these.
     
  2. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Koto_ryu

    I've only been consistently training for the past 6 months. I've been training off and on for the past 4 years.

    My goals are as I said in the OP:

    I'm aiming to increase my absolute strength, flexibility, coordination, anaerobic endurance, capacity to recover, and overall athleticism.
     
  3. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    You have quite a long time then before you need to worry about any muscular imbalances you might have, if any. Some of us have been training for years on nothing but the basics and have done extremely well. While your program sounds good on paper, I'm willing to bet you won't see the types of gains you hope for. While many of those exercises will be similar in nature, your gains in absolute strength will be minimal as there's TOO much variety. Variety is good, it keeps you interested, but too much can be a bad thing. Also, if you're doing these to supplement your MA training, you might want more MA-specific workouts involved, otherwise you'll just be training as an unspecialized athlete.
     
  4. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Could you please explain this statement to me? Because I've never heard such a thing. In fact, I've only ever heard the exact opposite. As I mentioned earlier, Chad Waterbury inpsired my program to a good degree, and he repeatedly suggests that lifters not repeat any large compound movements in one week to stave off adaptation and maximize gains. By cycling between unilateral and bilateral movements, dumbell and barbell exercises, full ROM and partial ROM variations, etc. I was under the impression I would be promoting great increases in strength, coordination, and neural efficiency, as well as preventing adapation, imbalance, and weak stabalizers.

    I've been training in a similiar manner for the past 6 months, just not with any coherent structure. The carryover to my MA, particularly my grappling, has been enormous. By working my way up to a double body weight deadlift, I found it easier to toss people around on the mats. With lots of supportive grip training like deadlifts with no wrist straps, farmer's walks, cleans, etc. I don't have to worry about people easily slipping out of my holds. Heavy squats and romanian deadlifts have given me the explosive power necessary to reverse mount and guard positions on guys that weigh 50 lbs more than me.

    So far, my training has been very supplemental; I'm not sure how this new program will fail to be. Perhaps you could explain further?
    I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree, but at this point I'm becoming bored of reemphasizing the importance of structural balance and the prevalance of imbalances among the majority of lifters.
     
  5. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    what other areas of the shoulder can you work?
    i've been lifting for 20+ yrs and have never had a seriuos shoulder injury, thats including all the wear and tear from sports.
    work the basics and build a strong foundation ,then compliment your basic exercises with supplemental ones to round out your training
     
  6. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    I'm afraid you've, ironically, fallen victim to the very thing I've been speaking against thus far: oversimplification.

    The "three heads" of the shoulder are nothing more than a simplification that really misses a large part of the picture and ignores the complex interplay between various muscles and connective tissues around the shoulder area.

    Let me quote Eric Cressey from this article on training the rotator cuff and addressing structural balance in the shoulder joint.

    The term "shoulder" is actually best used to describe a complex or region which consists of roughly twenty muscles and five articulations (1). Nonetheless, the term "shoulder joint" is often used to refer to the glenohumeral joint, the articulation between the humerus (upper arm) and glenoid fossa (cavity) of the scapula. Although the remaining four articulations all play integral roles in upper body motion, the glenohumeral joint is of foremost importance to our discussion.

    Then I'd say you've been very lucky, or you're choosing your words delicately and have had some minor shoulder injuries, though nothing "serious", or you're just plain lying :p

    Nevertheless, with such a simplistic view on training your shoulders, even if you've not injured yourself yet, I'd bet good money you've developed some nasty imbalances and impingements over the past 20+ years that are a countdown to future injury.
     
  7. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    man all your info comes from reading joe blow's this and johnny bads**'s that.
    the shoulder is one muscle with three heads, all the other stuff you mentioned is worked when an injury has occurred. you can do those exercises till hell freezes over and you won't gain size, mass, or power because you'll be using such a light weight.

    i have hurt my shoulder before, seperated it playing football in school, the PT was astonished at the fact that i had/have been lifting for so long and have NEVER had a SERIOUS injury from weight training and he said keep doing what your doing cause you don't have the tall tell signs of a weight lifter.are you going to argue with a PT with joe blow's article.

    i understand that you want to get all the knowledge you can in order to achieve your goals and that is comendable but you have to build a base from which you can build on.

    i'll take your money if ou really want to lose it, cause what i'm doing has'nt caused any injuries yet, so who are you to say that it's just a matter of time
     
  8. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Bit over complicated in my opinion.

    Pullups
    Dips
    Miltary Press
    Squat
    Deadlift
    Ab work
    Farmers walk.

    All you need really. You can spice it up later if you want, but its nice to start a cycle with big basic exercises you can add weight to consistently.

    All the shoulder work is a waste of time. Military Press hits your shoulders perfectly. Incline shrugs are good aswell.
     
  9. TheMachine

    TheMachine Valued Member

    All I can say is this... You've been working out for what? 6 months? yes you may have had inspiration from these coaches who are well respected but take into consideration they have had many years of experience in training directly or training others, so programs they make have a rhyme and reson and one cannot just parrot what they say since it may not be applicable to you...

    Knowing a bunch of theory is different from actually spending your time training and I have had my fair share of training experience on myself and others who has stuck to the compund basic exercises and I haven't seen any imbalanc that is a disaster waiting to happen, if any, a minor tweak in form or exercise subtitution was al that was needed to correct any imbalance there was.

    Soonce again keep it simple
     
  10. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    No, it's not. That's simply false. If you would have actually read the article I linked, you'd understand why it's important to work those various muscles before an injury occurs so that hopefully you never have to incur one. Take a look at Wikipedia's article on the shoulder. Scroll down to where it lists the "major muscles", and read all about the different muscles of the shoulder joint, where they attach, and what they do.

    The shoulder and it's musculature is often simply called the "delts". Obviously this is a very generalized reference.

    Just as the external obliques, the internal obliques, the transversus abdominis, rectus abdominis, the pyramidalis muscle and others are all commonly referred to as the "abs". People simplify the whole general region because obviously not everyone is going to bother memorizing their entire musculoskeletal anatomy.

    I can't figure out if you're actually serious or not. From the article, which you really should do yourself a favor and read:
    Yes, of course I am - that's not even a contest.

    Eric Cressey, a NSCA Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, is currently pursuing his Master's degree in Exercise Science through the University of Connecticut's Department of Kinesiology. He graduated from the University of New England with a double major in Exercise Science and Sports and Fitness Management. Eric has worked to help others achieve their goals in clinical (cardiac and pulmonary rehabilitation), general fitness, and athletic performance settings.


    He's one of the most prominant authors for T-Nation, I find it hilarious you refer to him as Joe Blow :rolleyes:

    Yeah, and plenty of people who smoke haven't gotten lung cancer. I also know a lot of people who have driven drunk without actually hitting anything/anyone. There's also people who are obese but haven't yet had a heart attack.

    You're lucky, nothing more. I'm glad you haven't hurt yourself yet, but that doesn't change the fact that you could be training better and safer. If you would stop running your mouth for 5 seconds, long enough to actually read some of the material I've provided, you could make some changes to your own personal program that would undoubtedly help you in size, strength, stablization, and of course safety. Or you can keep telling me that your "basics" are flawless and convince yourself that lucky somehow means intelligent.

    For the past 6 months my program has been back squats, orthodox deadlifts, cleans, dips, pullups, chinups, flat bench press, seated cable rows, and farmers walks.

    The shoulder work is not a waste of time my friend, and the military press is not enough by a long shot to build strong, stable shoulders.

    I haven't referenced any articles that only apply to this or that individual, or people with special conditions, or people with a specific training age. I've only referred to information that applies equally to everyone, except maybe veterans who lost both their arms in a war :D

    I'm amused that your refer to the anatomy and kinesiology of the human shoulder as "a bunch of theory".

    Forgive me if your anecdotal "I do this and I feel just fine" doesn't particularly convince me.

    Also, if you people look at my program, you'll see that it is a lot of heavy compound movements, supplemented with some external rotation, serratus, and hip ad/abduction movements... that's it. I never said compound movements are bad, I simply said that using only the big compound movements and nothing else isn't as effective, nor as safe, as using supplemental exercises to promote stability and balance.
     
  11. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    i've been quite polite with you and your untried BS but when you tell me to close my mouth it's on now out the door go the proper responses. you've been lifting for what? 6 months? all your knowledge comes from what you have read and not from personal experience, come off your high horse with all that it staes this here bs and do some actual training until then your ramblings are just that ramblings.

    have you had basic anatomy? the cat's shoulder is composed of three heads not the humans, when you do basic compound movements you are working those intraquit muscles you keep printing to try and sound intelligent. have'nt you read that some where??????????

    since you seem to know all and can tell all i'm done arguing with a keyboard know it all. anyway i wish you the best in your training
     
  12. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    I don't see why asking someone to read before they speak is so offensive, but if you feel so inclined to get upset then that's on you.

    I also don't see how training age has much to do with this discussion. How long I've lifted has no effect on the validity of any of the statements I've made. For you to resort to attacking my credibility, rather than my actual arguments, gives the impression that you don't have anything meaningful to say.

    It doesn't matter if I've been training 5 days or 50 years - if you disagree with what I'm saying, I'm open to counterarguments.

    Yes I do understand basic anatomy. First, I'll remind you that it was you who first mentioned the three heads of the shoulder. I assumed you were referring to the deltoid muscle. The deltoid muscle has three sections, the front head, the side head and the rear head. I'm not sure what cat shoulders have to do with this.

    You can throw a little ****y fit and refuse to talk if you want, but you haven't addressed any of my points. Perhaps your training age is the disadvantage, because you seem to be the one who thinks he knows it all and has it all figured out, and doesn't want to listen to someone who has something to say that's different from what you've done for however many years.
     
  13. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    Think of this in terms of martial arts then. There are basic techniques in all martial arts that must be constantly trained. By only training one per training session and applying in more frivolous techniques, you won't become as skilled as someone who is firmly ground in the basics. Your foundation is barely built yet and already you're trying to put in a fancy staircase in your house.

    Adaptation is actually one of the basic training principles you want to take into consideration. The more your body adapts to something, the more you can utilize it more efficiently (similar to how a roundhouse kick is trained). You need not fear you won't be getting anything out of the exercise though, as there are also other training principles such as progressive overload (adding weight to your exercises), intensity (what % of your max you train with) and volume (whether you perform higher reps or lower reps).

    Neurological efficiency is built by constantly utilizing the same pathways. This is where most of your initial gains begin before your muscles begin to strengthen. However, to build that efficiency you need to perform that movement many many times (much like you would need to do to perfect a reverse punch or a front kick). Once those pathways are finely tuned, phenomenal things occur, whether it's Pyrros Dimas' 469 pound clean and jerk or a karate punch that can shatter ice blocks. Frequent training in that movement is the only way either of those are possible.

    Also, in regards to weak stabilizers: this is true that varied exercises can affect your stabilizers somewhat, but it's also true that a barbell cannot replace a heavy awkward object. With something as simple as a heavy sandbag, you could not only be training those stabilizers but also getting in a good workout. Training with a sandbag sounds too simplistic for those who like the overly complicated yet low result producing crowd.

    There is a group out there called Westside which has a similar approach to what you want, which they call the conjugate method. While they add in a variety of different exercises, they still focus predominantly on compound exercises. Their focus is to train explosive power, speed, and strength all at once. I recommend you give them a look: http://www.westside-barbell.com/
     
  14. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    I'd have to disagree there. Being a competitive amateur strongman, 99% of my routine is based on heavy compounds. Not only that, but some of my best gains strength and mass wise have been on a mere two days per week. During season prep, I sometimes bump that up to 3 but usually no more than 3. While it varies according to contests, this is my current approach:

    WEEK ONE:
    MONDAY:
    Oly-Style Back Squats (4x5)
    Clean and Strict Press (4x5, clean first rep)
    Yates Rows (4x5)
    Farmer's Walk (100ft with one turn at 50ft, one time)
    Decline Situps (2x8-15 with weight)
    Calf Raises (3x8)

    WEDNESDAY:
    Snatch alternated with Squat Cleans (5x3)
    Incline Log Bench (4x5)
    Yoke Walking (two warm-up sets, one work set)
    Side Bends (2x8-15)
    Neck Harness (2x8)

    SATURDAY:
    Log Presses (4x5, clean once then press for reps)
    Deadlifts for Reps (2" thickbar or barbell, max reps in 60 sec with contest weight)
    Keg Carry (5 kegs for 30ft apiece)
    **Backwards Sled Dragging (max weight on sled) and Tire Toss (three throws apiece)

    WEEK TWO:
    MONDAY:
    Front Squats (4x5)
    Dumbbell Clean and Press (4x5, clean first rep)
    Overhead Squats (4x5)
    Farmer's Walk (100ft with one turn at 50ft, one time)
    Decline Situps (2x8-15 with weight)
    Calf Raises (3x8)

    WEDNESDAY:
    Deadlifts (4x5)
    Bench Press (4x5, barbell)
    Front Carries (two warm-up sets, one work set)
    Side Bends (2x8-15)
    Neck Harness (2x8)

    SATURDAY:
    Axle Clean and Jerk (5 singles)
    Atlas Stones (do 8-12 sets)
    Farmer's Power Hold (three sets)
    **Backwards Sled Dragging (max weight on sled) and Tire Toss (three throws apiece)

    Seems a bit too simplistic you could say, as overall it focuses only on big lifts. Result-producing? Very much so. Weight training is not a complex activity. Once thinking gets too complex, results start to fall. That's why as soon as the U.S. began trying out the Eastern European periodization schemes, we went from being a top contender at O-lifting to nothing of note.
     
  15. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    just because you have read some articles and some books does'nt make you a expert.. you are an ingotistical little tart who thinks cause he reads he knows all. time one trains does make a difference you little troll... you can read all the material you want to but until you have actually put in the time training all your arguements are just other peoples experiences. what makes you think what has worked for those you chose to follow will actually work for you?only time will tell if it does so there is where the experience factor comes into play. you stating that experience plays no part in knowing what is right and what is wrong just proves your ignorance

    as for me knowing it all, i never claimed to know it all, but i have put more time in the weight room actually training than you probably ever will.

    i would be happy to listen to you if you have put in the time, come to your conclusions thru trial and error, and have more than 6 monhts under your belt. you can learn everything about swimming from a book, but until you have jumped into the water and swam you can't say you know how to swim

    this is'nt the only thread were you spout all this material with no to little actual experience. quit trolling, train then come back an put in your 2 cents, until then i don't even need to keep bothering with you, walk away yes , why ? because you can't imput anything that i can't read myself
     
  16. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Soc. Training your exterior rotars is good enough to prevent shoulder injury. You dont need all the other crap in there.

    Do exterior work once a week.
     
  17. TheMachine

    TheMachine Valued Member

    As I always belive Ignorance is curable Stupidity is terminal...

    I hav learned through the years that real life experience beats any book or theory on paper any given day... The book can only tell you some things but cannot tell you what other things may happen
     
  18. cxw

    cxw Valued Member

    The thing with only having trained for 6 months is that you'll make good progress with a mediocre program. I managed to get to a 2 times bodyweight deadlift with a mediocre program.

    My training understanding evolves over time (I lag way behind the strength level of lots of the other posters). My advise is steal from these people. Eric Cressey writes fine articles but you have to choose the right time (and excercises and volume) to include shoulder specialisation work.

    Just like a tomato is a fine vegetable but it's not always appropriate to include in food.
     
  19. TheMachine

    TheMachine Valued Member

    Very true...

    In fact if you have been training for a year or less 99% of the time, you won't even need to specialize
     
  20. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    That's a great analogy actually, and you've definitely helped to illustrate where you're coming from and I see your concern pretty clearly now. However, I don't think that weight training with multiple exercises is detrimental in the same way as learning too many fighting techniques, which definitely is a detriment I would agree. I do love to box after all, so I understand the idea of emphasizing the basics very well.

    First of all, I disagree that my foundation is barely built. Like I said, I've been lifting for over 4 years, the past 6 months of which have been conistently 3 days a week without break. I can bench almost 150% of my bodyweight, I can full squat 150% my bodyweight, I can do a powerlifter squat with more than 200% my bodyweight, I can deadlift more than 200% my bodyweight, I can overhead press more than my bodyweight, I can overhead squat my bodyweight, I can dip with 70lbs attached to past 90 degree elbow flexion, and I can perform a weighted chin-up with 70lbs attached to me. I can also row (all the way to my chest) more than my bodyweight.

    As far as I understand, that's a pretty good foundation. I can also close the #2 COC with both hands, I never use wrist straps for any lifts, in fact with every exercise I can I wrap towels around the bar, both to prevent calluses and to challenge my grip that much more.

    The question I have, is what does it hurt to include a few additional exercises that will help promote structural balance? They're not taxing on the nervous system, so they're not going to negatively effect my other lifts at all. In fact, they should help to make my squat, deadlift, and bench all increase, among other big lifts.

    The only drawback is time, that's it. Like Blessed Samurai already said, if I've got the extra time, go for it, if I don't, cut them out. Well, fortunately for me I've got plenty of time. I work on the rock wall of our local YMCA, and it closes at 8pm. The rest of the Y doesn't close until 10pm, so I have 2 free hours to do whatever I want. Time is not an issue.

    So honestly, what's the big deal? By throwing in some external rotations and serratus work, I'll ensure I have good balance with my rotator cuff, I'll be hitting movement patterns that the large compounds lifts can't and thus ensuring proper balance, and I'll be increasing my numbers on some of my biggest lifts.

    Time is the only trade off for increased strength, size, and stability in my muscles. I have plenty of time, so what is everybody's problem?

    Agreed. I don't see what you're getting at though. I have been training the big lifts for a long time, and I am still including all the big lifts (except olympic lifts) in my program.

    I have a broken 150lb sandbag made out of an old army duffel bag duct taped shut sitting on my back porch. Before it broke (The canvas ripped open one day when I dropped it after shouldering it) I trained with it for about a year. Sandbags are phenomenal training tools, and they are very simple and cheap to make. When I first made that thing it took me nearly a full minute to get it to my shoulder, and I thought I was going to die. After a few months I was doing sets of cleans with it and carrying it for hundred-foot sets. I plan to order a new one this summer. In the mean time I've made myself a 27 lb medicine ball (a basketball, duct tape, and sand from my broken sand bag) for my sunday circuits. I'm also keeping my eyes open for an empty keg that nobody wants, but that's been harder to find than I thought it would be.

    Hmmm, sounds exactly like what I'm doing :rolleyes:

    Of course it would be result producing. For the love of Christ when did I EVER SAY that compound lifts were ineffective? I've been performing them for a long time, and they are still the meat and potatoes of my new program.

    And I'm sorry, but weight training is complex. There are dozens of muscles, dozens of movement patterns, a complicated interplay between our different muscle groups, multiple set/rep schemes that effect our muscles and our nervous system in different ways, rest times, tempo, intensity, periodization, cycling, recovery, supplementation, etc. A million different factors, and a million different kinds of people who have a million different conditions and genetic factors, all of which change the way they respond to this or that movement, this or that volume, etc.

    You're kidding yourself if you think this stuff is black and white, even remotely.
     

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