My Experience with "Iron Fist", Iron Training

I'm here and rearing to go.

 

^^^^
Cool!
*Gets a good seat and a bucket of popcorn*

 

I once read in a Kung Fu book that talks about "Iron Head" training. It is done (apparently) by wrapping a thick towel around your skull, and then proceeding to 'carefully' BASH :bang: your head against a wall, a minumum of 100 times per day.

Never bothered to try it yet though.

But you wonder, if the author got his information from someone that tried this, then proceeded to try it himself . . . . . just how scientifically and medically "sound" this training method really is.

 

Sounds like American football or Rugby to me.. You sure the author in question didn't just 'accidentaly' mix up kung fu and rugby? I mean they DO share two whole letters between them.

 

...

Dang, so I've been on the wrong forum this whole time.

And I've been confusing Kung Fu with White Crane Rugby all along!

 

So according to the above reasearch; trauma & suden impact increase the risk of osteoarthritis. And while it says that "recreational sports done at a reasonable level do not increase the risk" I doubt that iron fist training would be classed as a recreational sport or even "reasonable". To my knowledge what iron fist training does is expose the joints in your hand to trauma by submitting them to sudden impacts, which is something the reaserches cited as increasing the risk of osteoarthritis.

While it may be possible to help off set joint problems through mobility exercises I find it hard to imagine that over time there would not be a gradual degredation in the joints through wear and tear beyond that which a person who did not undertake iron fist training would experience.

 

First off all "lo"

To Fatsan: i think hellsender's point is that if you begin iron-whatever training gently and then sloooowly increase the intensity then it will fall under the category of "reasonable" impact.

I mean even punching the bag with gloves causes impact. It's just more "reasonable."

I would also like to compliment hellsender on writing a series of posts where he backed up all his points with sources that could be read and critiqued. I would also like to applaud him for not losing his temper and falling back on childish tactics as so many others do.

So far he is the most intelligent person I've encountered here at MAP.

I would simultaneously like to criticise slipthejab for STILL not providing a scientific source to support his claim that iron hand training causes arthritis. He has been asked to give one several times and he still hasn't.

And all this while accusing other people of not supplying enough evidence for their own points.

*sigh*

Dude please post a link? Unlike many of the other trolls I am actually really interested in both sides of this story and I'm really keen to get your opinion and the facts that it is derived from.

Round 1: hellsender 3 - slipthejab 0

/me gets popcorn before remembering he has too much work to do
/me returns to his home under the billie goats' bridge.

ciao

 

If that was Hellsenders point then he had a real problem getting that across to the vast majority of people here at MAP. I think Hellsenders point is rather apparent.

Yes... obviously. The difference between punching a bag with gloves on and banging your bare knuckles on cement or metal or with a hammer is so massive that to try to draw some sort of legit comparison is foolish in the extreme.

Who are you kidding?
Many of his sources were rubbish. He kept bringing up Wolff's law as if by that simple law alone it was OK for everyone to run out and start bashing their knuckles with a hammer. He hadn't even brought up ossification until I did - because he didn't have a clue. He was too lazy to search for the references that were pointed out to him in this thread and his other nonsense thread.

His posts were so full of erroneous rubbish that it got his sorry ass laughed off MAP.

LOL!
You've mistaken me for someone who cares. Stick around longer - you'll see just how much I could care less.

So far he is the most intelligent person I've encountered here at MAP.

BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Riiiiight.
Well mister (4 posts as of this post of mine) I suggest you stick around and what the BBQ continue then. Step up to bat for you own if you're feeling up for it.

I suggest you quote where in this thread I have stated in no uncertain terms that Iron Palm causes arthritis. We won't hold our breath because that's not how it was stated. So bone up on your reading comprehension before you come in singing the praises of some misinformed Iron Palmer.

 

First of all: my bad. You are quite right, it was shotochem who originally threw in the "impact training causes arthritis thing". I'm glad that we've sorted that out and decided that, perfomed "reasonably", it doesn't (until someone finds a good link

Anyhoo unfortunately you haven't yet explained why a training regime that starts with light impact (lets say punching a bag with gloves on) and then moves on to more strenuous impact (lets say... making light impact against a brick wall) is bad for you.

Now about the "hitting yer hand with a hammer" thing. When I read hellsender's original post I thought he meant he was hitting a hammer with his hand, not the other way round. The idea being that its a handy hard-thing that you can easily carry. Maybe me was wrong :/

Now since it seems that I misunderstood your point could you please state it for me? I got that you are passionately opposed to ANYTHNG refered to as "iron hand" training but you havn't said why? We all know that some people go too far and hurt themselves but that doesnt mean that all hand conditioning is bad. There are idiots in every martial art I don't see why you are classifying hellsender as one.

I mean knuckle pushups are a kind of "iron hand" training and most of the schools I know of use them as a conditioning exercise.

Now obviously there are other people who go too far and wreck themselves, as hellsender has frequently said, but I don't see why you assume that any kind of hand conditioning is necessarily bad for you.

What it boils down to is 2 things:
1) What works for you,
2) What the research says.

Now we all have a pretty good idea about number 1, it's number 2 I was hoping for some clarity on.

Thank you for your time.
Ciao.

 

Before I bother to post any more on this thread - I sugget you go back and reread Hellsenders posts. You'll find that he's cherry picked terms to fit his theory of conditioning. It wouldn't be the first post where he did so. It's pure psuedoscience.

His posts are rubbish and this is why he was patently dismissed as a clown.

Seriously... go back and read his posts again. I think you'll find them laughable.

 

Ok, read them and it seems to me that this whole thing started because he made an ill-advised and badly phrased statement about boxers.

Since then the two of you have been duking it out on the forums but as far as I can see he has remained an adult about it and you haven't. Maybe me has missed something again? I mean despite the fact that I'm a High School English teacher and a Masters student my "comprehension skills" are apparrently not up to scratch

But like you said: you don't care, so no worries man.

I would also like to say that I've read a bunch of your posts too and I have a new-found repsect for you as well.

Well played
-ciao

 

Hmm

Well, I don't know about y'all, but to me it's simple.

I have done some of my own "iron training", and it has made my knuckles harder. End of story. It works. But it's how you go about it that makes the difference.

One time, when I first started, I punched a hard wood tree, full force bare knuckle. Needless to say that was followed by bandages, pain killers ect.

Thats the bad way. Thats ineffective.

After that, I started to do light-medium-impact punches, on soft wood structures, and only 3 times a week MAXIMUM. After a while I build up SLOWLY to more often a week, then to harder subtances. (hard wood, stone, and finally metal.)

That way worked. No injuries, no pain killers, very effective.


The topic in question should not be "if it works" it should be "how it is properly done".

-Yusuke

 

Only that it's not 'end of story'. All you're doing is showing anecdotal evidence that it works. That doesn't really cut it. While it's interesting to hear stories about people training like this... it's hardly something you can base a training regimen on. Well... that is if you truly care about the longevity and health of your knuckels and joints. Recommending others train the same way seems to me irresponsible because so little is know about what is actually going on. When I say 'known' I don't mean anecdotally.

Yeah, no kiddin'.

So let me understand this... you are now punching metal, stone and hardwood structures?

Surely you'd be more than happy to post some vid clips of this. I mean after all if it works so well - then surely you'd want to share this with others. I mean you never know there could be someone running around saying these sorts of training methods are silly - we couldn't have that could we?

Please post some video clips of you doing what you're explaining.

Some questions regarding what you've posted:

1) I'm curious what you think is physiological process going on behind all of this?

2) Are you inducing ossification?

3) And if so how does the end result differ from hitting the heavy bag?
Not in terms of how your doing it (obviously the training methodology is different)... but in terms of the ossification process.

4) Furthermore can you back that up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

5) What do you think the long term effects of these kinds of impacts will be on the health of your bones, joints and connective tissue in your hands and wrists?

6) What would be the point of training like this? Boxers seem to be able to punch just fine without the uber-xtreme conditioning methods you're on about. So what advantage do you believe you're conditioning methods offer?

7) And again with that last question... how would you know? Have you put it to the test - and if so where and how?

8) Have a you got a competitive fight background?

9) How would you rate your level of understanding of physiology and anatomy?

 

So on the one hand we have anecdotal evidence that done "correctly" it works and on the other hand we have anecdotal evidence that done incorrectly it doesn't. So that's a draw.

I totally agree with you slipthejab, let's see some research. So far I haven't seen any for or against.

Now I'd like to take a crack at answering slipthejab's questions, feel free to ignore me

1) I'm curious what you think is physiological process going on behind all of this?
2) Are you inducing ossification?

1 and 2 kinda go together. If Wolf's Law is accurate (and I don't know it is but it was being taught when i was at university in 1997) then the impact of striking a resisting surface will put more stress on the bones and thus promote ossification. Exactly the same as hitting a heavy bag with padding.

3) And if so how does the end result differ from hitting the heavy bag?
Not in terms of how your doing it (obviously the training methodology is different)... but in terms of the ossification process.

Well if Wolff's Law is accurate then a less resisting surface means increased stress on the bones and thus increased ossification, at least in theory. Also gloves are designed to reduce impact on the wrist, this will make them (the wrists) less likely to increase in strength when compared to someone who trains (correctly) without gloves.

Now I know that in the wrist tendons and ligaments are also a key factor in strength but my understanding was that they can also adapt to impact.

4) Furthermore can you back that up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

So far no, but then neither can the other side and at least (if Wolf's Law is accurate) we have a solid theoretical stance.

5) What do you think the long term effects of these kinds of impacts will be on the health of your bones, joints and connective tissue in your hands and wrists?

Alas once again we have to wait for some kind soul to find research either proving or disproving the idea that this kind of slow, steady training has negative long term consequences.

6) What would be the point of training like this? Boxers seem to be able to punch just fine without the uber-xtreme conditioning methods you're on about. So what advantage do you believe you're conditioning methods offer?

This is a trickeir question. We know that boxes are great at hitting stuff so whats the point of all that extra pain? Well i guess it goes back to my earlier point about also increasing your ability to strike without gloves.

7) And again with that last question... how would you know? Have you put it to the test - and if so where and how?

For that and the last 2 questions all I can say is "Nothing to do with me, I shall wait for the research."

8) Have a you got a competitive fight background?

9) How would you rate your level of understanding of physiology and anatomy?


Now I have a question for slipthejab: i still don't get why you are so against any kind of training with the word "iron" in it? Well besides the legions of charlatans and morons who just break themsevles doing dumb stuff.

Seriously: why do you object so strongly to the theory?

ciao

 

Even if Wolff's law is correct it doesn't mean that there is an injury free carte-blanche to simply run around and bash your bones because it promotes ossification and therefore is a good method of training.

Obviously it doesn't... or otherwise we'd have even more idiots suggesting extreme training methods so that one can end up with uber-deadly fists of steel. In fact I'm sure there would then be no use for axial loading as in Olympic lifting and the compound movements of power lifting which have postive effects of on the increase in bone density without having to rely on impact - eg. ossification.

First off I think you mean to say a 'more resisting surface' not a 'less resisting surface'. Secondly - I can understand the gradual increase in bone density via ossification and new bone growth by kicking on a heavy bag where the risk of injury is generally acceptable and rather small - at least in terms of bone based injuries.

But what I have trouble accepting is recommending training methods where the risk appears to be substantially higher with a method that is not in very wide acceptance among communities (eg. professional Muay Thai fighters) who essentially use their bones as weapons and have probably more experience with full contact fighting (read as bone to bone) than any other single group of martial artists. Even 'bare knuckle boxers' don't have the same amount of bone on bone contact that Muay Thai fighters have.

Historically nak muays have trained with what are widely considered acceptable-risk methods (eg. kicking on heavy bags/pads/kicking shields and training with shin pads) and even through repeated bone on bone contact over the course of a fight and over the course of a fight career they haven't found the need to resort to uber-extreme methods of deadly bone conditioning that have been suggested by the original poster.

Just how much do gloves actually reduce the impact on the wrist?
Is that their main purpose?
My take on it has been that gloves are in place primarily to reduce cuts to the person being hit and to reduce cuts on the knuckles of the person hitting.
We can easily see what is considered 'correct' training methods for training with gloves. After all they've been around for some time and there have been literally billions of fights with people wearing gloves... so I think it's safe to say... standard Muay Thai and boxing methods for training with gloves are fairly well established.

Yet I don't find the same credibility or history for training without gloves. Especially with the methods that were flaunted at the beginning of this thread. If you have citable knowledge from accurate sources regarding this means of training and it's valid use in combat sports or combat for that matter then by all means post. I'm sure it will definitely be a first.

In theory perhaps but again I think we it's been safely established that training methods by Muay Thai fighters and boxers who train with wraps on bags have managed to condition to an acceptable level without having to resort to extreme methods that are not widely accepted and certainly don't have the volume of instance that traditional bag training methods do.
So while Wollf's law in theory might seem to give some sort of theoretical base it appears to be more of an attempt to cherry pick a theory or law to fit a method of training that there is simply very little to go on except for the heresay of a single poster.

I actually haven't any information that can verify that you run a greater risk of breaking bones if you hit not having used these uber training methods. Yes people can break their bones when punching bare fisted... but that doesn't neccessarily mean that people who train in this method are immune to bone breaks. Citing Wolff's law certainly doesn't prove it... and since the method is not generally accepted we'd have a very hard time finding out just how many people punching after having trained in this 'bones of steel' method are any better off in terms of avoiding bone breakage because of it.

Again - I don't see a justifiable risk for this sort of training.

No offense but I find there are many uber deadly martial artists out there that condone extreme methods of conditioning that have never had so much as a sandbox scrap let alone actually stepped into a competitive environment and put their money where their mouth is. I find it very hard to take them seriously on issues of conditiong... I think most people do.

You've answered your own question.

Because I've spent a very long time using tried and tested methods that a generally deemed as 'safe'. In addition to using my fists, shins, elbows and knee's in a competitive Muay Thai environment I've also used my fists in boxing bouts. The methods that I've used have worked not only for me in the ring but also out of the ring. I've worked more than a few people who had it coming in a non sporting environment and have never broken my hand, shin, elbow or knee.... yet I never felt the need to resort to some mystical method of conditioning myself. I've known many people who work on doors who've put the hurt on people in dubious amounts and have not suffered broken fist or shattered bones... and yet they don't feel the need to somehow fashion their fists into some sort of hammers of steel.

I really find the original posters stuff to be nonsense. As I stated before he managed to glom onto Wollf's law (most likely from a TV show that highlighted it recently) yet somehow he seemed to have no idea of what ossification was even though it is directly associated with increasing bone density and the growth of new bone. He repeatedly refused to search for articles that I'd cited previously and made every attempt to confuse the issue. When asked about his involvement in amatuer or professional fighting and his time spent trainging and under whom... he continually dodged the question.

It wouldn't be the first time someone came on an internet forum and posted uber methods for bones of steel. Most people simply laugh, think 'what an idiot' and move on... for me... I don't like people posting such unsubstantiated rubbish because the risk for the younger, more inexperienced and more impressionable readers on this forum is far too great. We really don't need people injuring themselves because some psuedo scientist started posting threads about training methods that are not generally recognized as being produtive or safe. There is simply no need for it. There are plenty of acceptable training methods for people who want them.

 

I personally dont condition my hands in any way, oh apart from maybe doing some push-ups on my fingertips. I dont really need to condition beyond pad and bag work. Conditioning my fists to a high level just dont interest me, and i have better things to do with my time, like knitting.

But if someone wants to do it, and they know the risks and goes about it in a sensible way then fair play to them. I think its a little bit hypocritical for people who do boxing, muay thai, KB or any other full-contact to critisize them, when their getting puched, kicked, elbowed and kneed in the head. Whats worse? permanent brain damage or arthritis in my hands.

 

hellsender, why did you start with a mettle plate and not a sand bag or rice bag or bean bag? kind of nuts. i cant wait till you write a book on MAP on how you got arthritas since you didnt have a sifu teach you, which is sound advice for iron palm training.

also it is sound advice to start soft and work your way up. its much better to develop tough calaces from sand... then from freaking metal. and umm your knuckles? come on.... iron plate hitting?

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ASK A SIFU DONT TRY THIS AT HOME.

 

Hopefully this lame ass thread will die.
Jeez - school must be out or something... the number of numpties on about Iron Forehead and what not is on the rise.

 

Yes, its me again

Firstly: DOH! Thank you for pointing out that typo, and for not making fun of how silly it made me sound (a few more like that and I mgiht have to stop teaching English! )

Secondly ta for answering all my questions, I reckon I have a much better understanding of where you are coming from.

As far as I can see doing iron hand boils down to 3 things:
1) You, personally, believe that it is doing you good and that the benefits outweigh the risks, like with most training.
2) you feel that the benefits that you gain cannot be gained in other ways.
3) the training works for you, either because you enjoy it or because it gives you satisfaction and a sense of achievement.

And that's fair enough, it is your own decision and I don't see any point in doing training that is effective if you don't enjoy doing it.

But like slipthejab says: there are many other training methods that have a much greater theoretical backup so whatever you do you should make an informed decision.

ciao

 

err... please use your mind. the buddha said, question everything even your masters.

why?

because there is no one style of iron palm training. there is google internet iron palm training that will give you arthritas... this is not the same as lets say traditional wing chun iron palm training with advice and care given by your sifu.

there are many ways to do iron palm, many of them are wrong and will lead to hand/bone issues of arthritas. this is not worth it. in the 70's there is a famous story where a kf magazine published an article to hit bricks to get iron palm... tons of people did this and got severe arthritas (an old MAP story)... much to learn from!

i wanted to point out what is bad... but man im not a sifu... please get real advice. NEVER START WITH HARD SURFACES UNLESS YOU HATE YOURSELF.