My Experience with "Iron Fist", Iron Training

Ossification, which you brought up...

"Ossification: The process of creating bone, that is of transforming cartilage (or fibrous tissue) into bone.

The human skeleton initially consists largely of cartilage which is relatively soft and is gradually transformed into hard bone during infant and child development.

The verb corresponding to "ossification" is "ossify." Cartilage becomes ossified as it is converted into bone. Bone is osseous tissue. "Os" is a synonym for "bone." The Latin word "os" means "bone" as does the related Greek word "osteon.""
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10397

Like I said, completely meaningless here. So what?

You don't mean "Heterotopic ossification", then, great. So you don't think this kind of training causes "the abnormal formation of true bone within extraskeletal soft tissues."

(ref: http://www.emedicine.com/radio/topic336.htm )

So, super. You are throwing around useless medical terms.

I pointed out Wolf's Law (various spellings):
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=wolf's+law

"Wolff's law is a theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1835-1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will be adapted and become weaker.

Examples of this can be shown in tennis players, whose raquet-holding arm bones become much stronger than the other arm. Their bodies have strengthened the bones in their raquet-holding arm since it is routinely placed under higher than normal stresses.

Also, astronauts who spend a long time in space will often return to Earth with weaker bones, since gravity hasn't been exerting a load on their bones. Their bodies have reabsorbed much of the mineral that was previously in their bones."


http://www.answers.com/topic/wolf-s-law

You stated my links were useless... I think you just didn't look them up. Which is a more useful term here, "ossification" or "Wolf's Law"?

I provided these references already, however.

I don't really see anything you disagree with then, at this point.

Your major complaint now does not seem to center around this kind of training causing calcium buildups in soft tissue nor in the creation of arthritis, but simply this:

"I fail to see the advantage of callouses on your knuckles or heavily increasing the size of your knuckles.



LOL!
When was the last time you met a cocconut that punched back?
Again - there are plenty of people who don't train anything like this that can punch someone in the face and break their nose or bust up their orbital bone.
"


I already noted I avoid getting callouses on my knuckles. They aren't there. I don't need them. When I start to get tears which become callouses I stop and heal up.

Callouses do help in hitting things. Are you denying that? I don't deny it though I do not build them up on my knuckles.

As far as bigger knuckles go... I do not know if my knuckles are overly sized except for the one I mentioned. That was a training accident which was largely unrelated to this whole issue. I noted that. Like how I mentioned a piece of evidence I used which was ancedotal you went all over that. Yet, all of your evidence is ancedotal. And you don't admit that.

What my knucles are now, after several years of training in this way... they are extremely hard. My fists are extremely durable. So are anyone else's fists who train this way.

Untrained bone is spongy, trained boned is much less spongy and much more hard. I don't see why you see that as such a big deal. I guess it is, in a way. It is very cool to have. It is great knowing that you are trained for bare knuckle fighting. It is great to do it with the rest of the body. I do advocate iron body training anywhere you might get hit or strike out.

As far as "hitting something that doesn't hit bag", good one. Everyone uses that. And then they go and hit their bags.

That said, I use bags. I also use gloves. I love bag training and do it all the time. My bag is in my living room. I use gloves when I am healing up or just to practice hitting when I do not wish to work on conditioning.

Rhematoid arthritis is caused by genetics. Regular arthritis, there does seem to be some link between that and some sports.

arthritis and sports:
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=54328

"Kamhi_Speaker As Dr. Zampieron just mentioned, there is no one case of arthritis. Research has shown that it is not just wear and tear that causes arthritis. Another cause that is talked about is traumatic injury, especially with osteoarthritis. Genetic factors may also play a part in a familial continuation and the development of arthritis. The causes are multi-faceted. They include the body's reaction to food allergies. They also directly relate to the health of the intestines, and also the infiltration of various infectious microorganisms, viruses, bacterias, yeast, etc. There is a particular mind set that accompanies arthritis. Stress plays a part as well. Certain kinds of diets make arthritis prevalent. The American diet, for example, has high amounts of the wrong kinds of fats and low amounts of the right kinds of facts, and it is laden with dairy products."

http://arthritis.about.com/od/oa/f/athletics.htm

"In an article published by Lequesne, Dang and Lane in Osteoarthritis and Cartilage, 1997, the relationship between athletics and osteoarthritis was considered. They concluded that osteoarthritis occurs prematurely in certain sports including:


soccer
rugby
racket sports
track and field
long-distance running

Joint overuse even without injury is the main mechanism of osteoarthritis. Researchers hypothesize that irregular or sudden impacts, heavy loads on the lower limbs, and pre-existing limb abnormalities or trauma increase the risk. Recreational sports done at a "reasonable" level do not increase risk, according to researchers."

Personally, what I am seeing there is these kinds of damage happen from sudden, unexpected stress... as opposed to a consistent actual moderated and resistance raising type of activity.

Can you get arthritis like symptoms from sports? Yes, and as you claim to be a sports medicine expert, I won't bother then to quote a source there as you know doubt already know that. Lest yet again you claim I am arguing "physiology 101" to "insult the readers". (I find such rhetoric really... stupid. The readers know I am answering your dumb questions only to have you come back at me with useless rhetorics. And for those who don't -- they do, on some level.

As far as my resume... that has to do with nothing. I think you are basing the vast majority of your evidence on your own resume. I would rather you cite and quote sources then do this. And not self-referencing sources.

I have already said I am a "security researcher". Is martial arts my field of research? No. However, I can not keep dogma in my research. If there is anything out there in my field which may be valid, I try and find proof or disproof for it.

Is being able to strike harder in anyway effective? Yes it is. I think that is plainly self-explanatory. If you can break concrete bricks, imagine what you can do to someone's face -- or ribcage -- or whatever. We all know that.

Does this help in the ring? I don't know, I will say again. It is obvious to me you train for the ring and not for, say, bare knuckle fighting or for the street. And good for you. I like boxing and find it one of the most effective martial arts systems out there. I do not hesistate to call it a martial art.

 

Mas Oyama is just one guy among many. I have researched the guy and probably read some of these threads. When I come across unreferenced stuff from anonymous internet users I just glide right over that stuff.

If you think martial arts breaking isn't real, then just say so. Pipe up. Let's address that. So far you have just said it isn't useful because "coconuts don't hit back". Bags don't hit back. So what.

I like martial arts breaking, but I do not engage in much of it myself. I gauge the force of my strikes by how far the bag swings and --- I have a force meter. You don't need to break boards to guage force anymore.

Great force meter for guaging power of strikes:
http://www.goherman.com/

Sadly, these kinds of tools, though available, are not popular. It seems people tend to not care to guage how hard they hit.

In the older times, breaking was the best guage they had.

 

I have to say, Slip, with all the asking for proof and backing up you do, you haven't backed up a single thing you said on this thread.

Not that I believe either of you two inherently, but if your opinion was such an obvious truth, you'd surely be able to back it up, right? Then that'd shut that hellsender guy, wouldn't it?

*NOTE: I'm not saying this to try to make fun of you or anything, but I just find it interesting to have a debate on this subject where the person defending "hard" conditionning doesn't come across like a complete loon, and I'd be disappointed to see it degenerate into the entertaining but uninformative flamefests you often trigger on those people.

 

Are you seriously going to deny breakings of hands and feet of professional fighters is not common? I thought it was too well known to even bother to cite... who can forget when these guys did these things?

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

"Source: From Inquirer Wire Services
Heavyweight champion Mike Tyson suffered a hairline fracture of his right hand early yesterday in a street fight with former opponent Mitch Green. Tyson, 22, his arm in a cast extending almost to his elbow, revealed the injury at a news conference last night. Manager Bill Cayton said the cast would be removed in three weeks, when it will be determined if he can defend his title Oct. 8 against Frank Bruno in London. According to Cayton, the champion, who was examined by Dr. David Chiu, broke "

Boxer "broke hand":
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=boxer "broke hand"&sa=N&tab=rw

First returns:
"RPM Boxing Press ReleasesFighter Reports She Broke Hand in Training. Waco, TX (October 25, 2001) RPM Boxing said today that it learned through news reports on the Women’s Boxing ...
www.rpmboxing.com/PressArchive2001.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages


Chase Shields: “I’m ready to step up”Then I fought with a broke hand that I broke in the first round but hung in ... my Dad was an amateur boxer back in the day but one day I got in a fight ...
www.doghouseboxing.com/Henderson/Henderson0615a05.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages


Joe Spina: “Pina is going to get knocked out!”... Spina suffered a broke hand, which was affected in the bout, but clearly didn’t affect the ... Copyright / All Rights reserved: Doghouse Boxing 1998-2006.
www.doghouseboxing.com/henderson/Henderson070306.htm - 12k - Cached - Similar pages


Women's Boxing: Jaime Clampitt BiographyBiography of professional boxer Jaime Clampitt. ... Clampitt, who was coming off a long layoff due to a broke hand, moved well in the early going. ...
www.wban.org/biog/jclampitt.htm - 69k - Cached - Similar pages
"

Etc, etc.

MMA "Broke hand":
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=MMA+"broke+hand"

Here's a famous one, Gracie "broke foot":
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Gracie "broke foot"&sa=N&tab=rw

I only wish you applied these same standards to your own arguments, such as your useless mumbling about "ossification".

Ossification:
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10397

"Ossification: The process of creating bone, that is of transforming cartilage (or fibrous tissue) into bone.

The human skeleton initially consists largely of cartilage which is relatively soft and is gradually transformed into hard bone during infant and child development.

The verb corresponding to "ossification" is "ossify." Cartilage becomes ossified as it is converted into bone. Bone is osseous tissue. "Os" is a synonym for "bone." The Latin word "os" means "bone" as does the related Greek word "osteon.""

Real enlightening.

Big word. Doesn't tell us anything. Big whoop.

The term I used on this subject does tell us something.

Wolf's Law (various spellings):

"Wolf's law
Wolff's law is a theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1835-1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will be adapted and become weaker.

Examples of this can be shown in tennis players, whose raquet-holding arm bones become much stronger than the other arm. Their bodies have strengthened the bones in their raquet-holding arm since it is routinely placed under higher than normal stresses.

Also, astronauts who spend a long time in space will often return to Earth with weaker bones, since gravity hasn't been exerting a load on their bones. Their bodies have reabsorbed much of the mineral that was previously in their bones."

http://www.answers.com/topic/wolf-s-law

I thought you were talking about ossification to claim this kind of training caused "Heterotopic ossification" which is a disease where calcium deposits are created in fleshy tissue. You swear you were not.

Great, because this kind of training does not cause that.

"No one is quite sure what causes heterotopic bone formation. "

reference: http://www.spinalcord.uab.edu/show.asp?durki=21485

 

Typically, anonymous posters on security subjects are complete bozos.

I am not saying slipthejab is. I think he wants to fight, verbally, and he is definitely staying through all of the rounds.

Great. Good fighters never give up.

But, this shouldn't be a fight.

I do not think this kind of training is for everyone. Why train this way? Who wants to kill someone? I don't. I am not a criminal. However, we all know that a lot of martial artists do incorporate these techniques into their training. We know they do this today and they have done it for thousands of years. I do think it is partly a lost art... due to the nature of McDojos, point based competition, and form based competition. I even see positives in "McDojos", point based competition, and form based competitions. What some of these kung fu guys can do is incredible. Tae Kwon Do or Karate matches that point based can be cool to watch. The reaction timing is still there. Most of the form is still there.

With all of the safe grappling moves and arts out there... who needs this kind of defense? You want to clear out a bar -- you might as well use sap gloves because that is illegal.

Honestly, I am partly a survivalist. I like studying these kinds of arts because, who knows, maybe someday that will be the only weapon you can have. And maybe someday, you might have to use such a thing and a weapon won't be handy.

It can be dangerous. I won't lie. I have been very careful to document these dangers, I think, and I think I have carefully gone over those areas which are not so dangerous to harden in this manner. slipthejab admits shin conditioning is good. I do that.

Surely, no one can find fault with Iron Palm conditioning. Probably not even with Iron Shirt or Iron Body conditioning. What a cool way to prepare for a fight, is what I say.

Frankly, most guys who do these kinds of things aren't happy to come onto online forums where they will get flamed by people who have been told these things are absolutely dangerous and completely useless. Why do that? A lot of hard core martial artists don't have time for such things. I usually don't, though I am not entirely "hard core". I am lacking in many areas.

Personally, however, I am sick of finding web references which repeat the same old myths. It is deplorable to me. More people should be doing this kind of training. Why wouldn't you want your own, built in sap gloves? Come on.

(No, not as useful as sap gloves... but you are getting a lot closer to that).

Anyway, at least no one is dogging me about iron shin training -- because I do that too. And I use a hammer! I also use a bag, though. Hammers just give more coverage.

NOT for everyone. I just threw that out if anyone wants some more ammo.

Heh heh heh...

Seriously, though, breaking in martial arts is not the evil people make it out to be. Again, I don't get into breaking per se -- and controlled resistance training for this kind of conditioning... and breaking... do not alwats mix well. But, these guys are out there and we see it. Why dismiss it all just because you can't do it? If it is great and useful -- incorporate it. Or just admit you don't.

To me martial arts is like anything else -- a search for truth. It is an art.

 

LOL, Loved the bit about condidtioning feet, had me in stitches

your one of the best trolls since tkdninja1

 

You asked me a question just to mock me. I would call that trolling.

Everything I have said here I have backed up.

Yeah, I have a sense of humor which I disguise... but, still, my facts are straight.

It is a pretty key part of all of the major striking martial arts school to incorporate this kind of conditioning in their routine.

Sad that a lot of guys don't know that or practice that... in the west.

Granted, even boxing started out with bare knuckle boxing... but too many guys were getting killed.

They would practice on sides of dead cows and such.

Chinese, Thailand, Korea, Japan... the striking martial arts of all of these countries were and mostly still do have this kind of conditioning as a core part of their striking arts.

They often still do.

But... you too often don't get this kind of training in the McDojos a lot of guys frequent. Why make the westerners sweat instead of making sure they just have fun and feel like that did something productive?

But, yeah, keep your gloves on... don't take em off. Unless you train for that.

Same thing stands for head butts, kicks of any kind, and just about anything else.

As everybody agrees the body adapts and toughens under this kind of stress... why wouldn't you practice, for instance, Iron Shirt training... if you actually expect to ever take real live hits?

I proved the bones grow denser, which everyone should know already... unless you only practice an internal martial art or pure grappling.

Anyway, whatever, what do I expect from online martial arts forums?

Edit:
And, yeah, I guess statements like that is a type of trolling. But, guys who that doesn't apply to won't take it seriously. Guys who it does apply to, yeah, I think they will.

Absolutely I knew this post wouldn't go over well. I find this crap dogma all over the place. <whine> you might get arthritis </whine>. But, that isn't trolling. I know there must be guys even on this forum who practice some kind of iron conditioning... unless everyone is that much of a pansy. (And, no, they aren't about to side with me if they want to keep their friends here... it is like how they do it in politics or religion. The Christian who goes to church to look good and have friends, but doesn't believe a word of the Book.)

But, I am not trolling purely for the amusement of bringing up something I can prove back and forth but is controversial... I am merely posting something very cool I have found to be true in martial arts.

Truth be told, I don't like the masses knowing the good stuff. I have a conscience obligation of somesort -- and that's it.

If everybody knew how to bare knuckle fight or take iron shirt hits or kick with iron shin muay thai... then what? Hey, more power to people if they want to keep to their myths and dogma. That's how the world goes around.

Guys like me just have an obligation to tell the truth. We don't have to force it on anyone.

Anyway, truth be told, I guess I am trolling here though that is not my intention... merely because a few of the older, pushier guys disagree with me.

I am sure you guys make sure and gang up on everyone you don't like... unless you are one of the younger brown nosers eager to believe everything they tell ya to get along so they will praise you.

Sad and ugly facts of life.

I do care people know the truth, but I don't get heartbroken about it. There are those who are rigorously seeking after truth in all things... and then there are the bad guys.

On this thread I have been laughed at, essentially called a liar and a charlatan... granted, these guys all did it in a sideways manner.

And for what? Has anyone brought up a single solid reason for not doing iron training? Has anyone back up their accusations with facts? As far as I can tell the only two arguments left are:

"It is unnecessary" and "it causes arthritis" -- neither of which are true, as I bothered to respond with facts. Amd NOBODY has proven otherwise. The only references for ANY of that kind of thing are self-referencing circular references which are ultimately based on HOT AIR.

Hypocrites make false charges and one thing you will always find about them -- the false charges they make against others are always, in some way, true about themselves.

Sad fact of martial arts... if you want to be different, you are gonna have a lot of people out there coming at you, angry that you dare challenge their old ways.

 

MAP has a new village idiot.

 

I don't seem to be having any problems

 

A good note to close this thread on. From my point, regardless.

So, I am a "charlatan", a "village idiot", "stupid", and have been laughed at. Regardless, I have patiently supplied references for everything I have said, even while being extremely hypocritically insulted by someone who refused to provide references for anything.

None of the name calling has been direct, it has all been done sideways -- of course.

Likewise the arguments I have seen are baseless, largely using really stupid and obvious rhetoric, and they show no faith in evidence citing whatsoever. In fact, another poster even dared to comment on this -- despite the fact that he probably wishes to hang around and not gain old timer's displeasure.

None of that matters to me, however, I am simply noting that I am fully aware of what you have done here.

If anyone wishes to look at the facts, regardless, I have answered every criticism until it no longer exists and backed that up with strong, cited references.

So, I am unconcerned.

Dogma and chest beating sometimes win friends and it doesn't rock the boat but it does nothing for effectiveness. You may do well in the ring, and maybe your students will as well, but you are not training them for fighting without protective gear and should advise them to never fight without it.

Real injury is not going to come from slow, progressive, careful resistance conditioning. Real conditioning comes from sudden and traumatic impact -- which is exactly what that kind of training sets people up for. You teach them to hit with force... enough force to break their hands and cause broken bone to be shunted into the joints. Which is a cause for arthritis.

http://arthritis.about.com/od/oa/f/athletics.htm


"Can Sports Cause Osteoarthritis?

In an article published by Lequesne, Dang and Lane in Osteoarthritis and Cartilage, 1997, the relationship between athletics and osteoarthritis was considered. They concluded that osteoarthritis occurs prematurely in certain sports including:


soccer
rugby
racket sports
track and field
long-distance running

Joint overuse even without injury is the main mechanism of osteoarthritis. Researchers hypothesize that irregular or sudden impacts, heavy loads on the lower limbs, and pre-existing limb abnormalities or trauma increase the risk. Recreational sports done at a "reasonable" level do not increase risk, according to researchers."

http://orthopedics.about.com/od/hipkneearthritis/f/arthritis.htm

"Joint damage can cause irregularities in the normal smooth joint surface. Previous major injuries can be part of the cause of arthritis. An example of an injury leading to arthritis is a tibial plateau fracture, where the broken area of bone enters the cartilage of the knee joint. "

As far as intelligence goes, I see that in your jibes about the word "ossification", which, heh, is quite amusing. You were unable to explain how the word had any meaning whatsoever in context and acted as if the mere pronounciation of it should impress me. Personally, my suspicion - unproven as it may be - is you meant "heterotopic Ossification"... but you did not know the meaning of the very word you were spouting on about and I called you on that before you could say anything. You did make some reference to bone being created in soft tissue which led me to believe that.

I also notice you finally had to shut up on all of these issues... and we unable to ever cite any solid reference. For anything.

Because you can't

At best you would mutter "use the search engine and look at my other posts". Which is called circular reasoning... or self-referencing.

Frankly, I think you don't even think you are consciously aware of that logical and rhetorical fallacy.

You muttered on with such things <dumb guy's voice> "Prove it, show references, you won't because you can't" </dumb guy's voice> even though it was I, all along, who had been giving references for everything. And I gave references to all of these points... even your completely ludicrous ones like <dumb guy's voice>"boxers never break their bones in street fights"</dumb guy's voice>.

So, at best you have had to resort to name calling... and even then you don't back up that name calling with evidence. Personally, I find it cowardly to call people names without evidence in the sideways manner which you have done such as the above. Are you afraid I would report you? Heh.

If you are going to resort to just calling people names because you can't argue using solid reasoning... please, be brave about it and do so. Don't say, "Well we got another charlatan" or "we got a stupid person", say, "You are stupid" and "you are a charlatan". Or how about, "Well, I don't care about the facts because you are stupid and a meanie, nya nya"?

And, hey, I will be charitable here and note, I have returned to you in kind as you have given, as is my right to treat hypocrites. If someone hits you and says "nothing wrong with that" -- you have every right to hit them back and say "yeah, guess not". However, I have not done you the disservice of doing this without evidence, and I surely have not done this on the basis of a lie.

These things said:

Any sports are potentially dangerous if you over exert yourself. I won't even say bone conditioning is more dangerous, then say, getting hit in the head in boxing -- because it isn't. I will say that if you train wrong without proper guidance or study... and if you fail to be patient and not over exert yourself, this kind of conditioning is not only perfectly safe... it is required for anyone who ever experts to get hit without protective gear or strike without protective gear. Otherwise, you may induce serious injury as the result of a traumatic injury.

All of that is common sense, as is every single thing I have said. Some things I have said are not well known and unbelievable, perhaps... though I have every right to do such things as I am telling the truth.

Sadly, the ins and outs of proper training of most kinds won't ever be found in anonymous forums such as these because of the tendancy for trolls to group together and take them over. Trolls, as in individuals who really should not be giving out any sort of advice.

Even if you are right in some things, and I have seen you be right in some things you have said, your entire process of reasoning is otherwise suspect -- after all you are training people in boxing and confronted with obvious evidence... but you profess ignorance of such things (which you forced me to cite) as boxers ever breaking their fists in street fights.

In fact, how you are unaware of the possibility of doing your fist serious damage with a strike without protective gear... is totally incomprehesible to me. How can any boxing trainer (or guy who claims to be such) ever be ignorant of the serious possibility of permanent damage resulting from a single traumatic injury induced by a trained but improperly conditioned hit?

And how can you spout the old wives tale about bone conditioning causing arthritis? At best, there, all I can think of is you are thinking of guys hitting metal plates at full force without previous and proper resistance training to allow them to do this. But, you seem ignorant of even this basic fact of progressive resistance training.

As a long time weightlifter - and a student who has studied under several very intense teachers in the martial arts - I know that these things are extremely dangerous if you skip a step and become overeager so as to induce major damage which is irreperable.

If only this kind of training was treated with the same knowledge and respect weightlifting is! Instead, it is like I have come on here suggesting heavy lifting in a progressive resistance format for gaining muscle... only to be told: "weightlifting tears muscles and can leave you permanently disabled, you are a charlatan and stupid for suggesting it". Because exactly like weightlfiting if you are overeager and impatient and try to lift something to heavy that very thing can happen.

Finally, you scolded me at points for explaining things which you like to say is "physiology 101" and "taught in High School". Yet, honestly, I can't discern what it is you do know and what it is you don't know. Because everything I have been saying is perfectly common sense and should be well known by any martial artist in a striking art.

At best I can only offer that your ignorance comes from a genuine a deep ignorance of other martial striking arts... which, I guess, is common for some boxer's who tend to get churned out by boxing mills and really don't even know the history of their own sport. Like that for centuries it was done without protective padding on the fists and the primary reason why this is not done anymore and rightfully illegal is because it is too easy to kill people without gloves on.

Whatever you may say after this, I know the truth about the matter... and I know you do, too, on a deep level. The level that can't deny truth regardless of how deep into delusions someone is. And that truth is this:

You have been a genuine ass here, you have gotten into the ring with an expert to fight a sport you are completely ignorant of thinking yourself capable of doing so. You have come out with ludicrously pitiful punches and been knocked backwards, upwards, and every way silly... only to get up again and again... only to have the same treatment happen. Finally, you are a complete, finished wreck... and you still get up. You are encouraged only by your foolish friends who, like you, can just go, "Nya, nya, he wins! You stink!" And to what cause? So you can get completely pummeled again.

Now, I walk away completely unharmed just shaking my head at your stupidity... I am moderately impressed by your drive, at least. Your willingness to keep getting up. But, I know when it comes to this kind of fight, you got nothing. Which is more painful, to get assaulted with lies and namecalling... or to be confronted with a charitable person sincerely wishing you the best and taking great pains to do so -- despite outrageously unfair tactics of his opponent?

I leave, therefore, with honor. As for you... I didn't see any honor here.

All of your moves were underhanded... to continue the metaphor... you stuck out with every illegal and dishonorable tactic in the book. I didn't see a single honorable tactic used whatsoever. That is the reaction of a desperate, weak man.

I would suggest, then that you learn about the first thing in martial arts: honor.

I hope, but only hope with knowing cynicism of the nature of such men, that you might have finally learned your lesson this time.

Open your mind, stand with truth, not with lies. Then, you can win. There is no strength in delusion and surely no honor in lying.

 

Whatever you say i'd still never hit a steel plate or a concrete wall

 

The medical sites I have been on looking into bone density advise high calcium and vit D and exercise of local area will increase bone density. Killing your nerves so that it doesn't hurt is permanently damaging your hands. Why do it when all you have to do is exercise them?

 

The guy I knew who messed his hand up with conditioning got vibration white finger not arthritis which is usually an industrial disease caused by pneumatic drills etc. The continual vibration of hitting solid objects caused this in him. he was also a medical proffesional and a university lecturer of sport science as well as a Karate master.

My opinion is that bag work is enough, thats what everyone I know does and none of them have broken a hand punching full force without gloves. I have seen what heavy conditioning can(not will) do and id rather not risk it.

 

I wasn't insulting you I was paying you a complement. I honestly don’t think you believe, and hope you don’t believe, what your posting.

I'm afraid you have provided misinterpretations of sources, links and quotations whilst accumulating false assumptions and invalid conclusions. Reading books is very good but sometimes they require background knowledge and in the case of books by MAists a little skepticism and perspective.

Yeah, at least you’re not the guy who took me seriously and got offended when I claimed to be the anti-Christ erlier on MAP

 

Blah blah blah.

The more you type your lengthy posts with random assertions and psuedo science it become just that much clearer that you are compeletely fraudulent.

While you babble on about your perceptions of martial arts and honor I suggest you take a big reality check and realize the total pap that you posted here isn't really what people training in MA need.

Go back to school, go back under your rock... go wherever.
Just stop posting assnine threads about silly conditioning techniques that are potentially debilitating.

You're either too lazy or dim to use the search engine here at MAP (which by the way genius is not called 'circular reasoning' it's called using proper research tools) to see what has been done to death here. One of those topics is clueless noobs like yourself espousing halfbaked conditioning theories.

You can be sure anytime you pop on here with such horsepucky I'll be right here to call you on it.

Buh bye.

 

In 30 years of CMAs I have never heard a myth that one could become sterile due to Iron Palm training.

It has been some years since the last time I read his autobio,but I don't think Oyama sheared horns off of bulls in televised competitions.But he did do it two or three times,I think he said.I do recall an interview in a 1976 issue of Official Karate during which Oyama was rapping his knuckles with a hammer during the interview and commented that he had to do this now or he would have hand problems,but that such methods weren't advisable.I'll believe Oyama.

From personal experience,a good dit da jow does make for less bruising as a result of using one's forearms to bash trees or your friends' forearms for extended periods of time.Enough people have used them in various training methods I'm inclined to believe their experiences due to my own.

I have never known a boxer,pro or am who felt it was no big deal to break a hand.There have been quite a few upper echolon pros who suffered throughout their careers due to breaks.And Slip,when Bert Sugar ran The Ring magazine,and later Boxing Illustrated I read them religiously.Occasionally there would be an incident when a fighter,and not neccesarily a "club fighter" would be involved in a fracas outside the ring and would deliver a crushing head shot,and break his hand.Of course,I've seen some fighters outside the ring deliver crushing head shots and not break their hand,but the hand with those little bones is a somewhat fragile object as regards naked fists against hard (as in skulls) objects.Look at the post fight drawings of fighters' hands (forget their faces!) pre M. of Q rules.Of course,many of these fights went for extended periods.But methinks you probably know all this anyway.

hser,if you enjoy your training for the sake of the training,go ahead.But I think you must agree that in such training it can be easy to overdue or simply to err over time, which may cause problems later in life.While the same may be said of many athletic practices,it's safe to say some are more hazardous than others,and hands (and knees) seem to be particularly susceptible.

 

No but several of them were filmed as they were done primarily as a public relations stunt. The clips for one or two of them have been posted several times here at MAP. They are hardly impressive. Additionally there are more than several people still living that were involved with or around at the time of the supposed shearing of horns of bulls.

Again - like I said much of this has been done to death in another thread here at MAP (which includes citations, vid clips and photos):

Mas Oyama and His Bull

If you're interested in the whole story then it makes for some interesting reading.

I wouldn't exactly take anyones autobiography as the most objective piece of historical evidence. I don't knock Oyama - surely he is one of the larger than life characters in the history of MA's. But I temper that with common sense. Anyone who's spent time on a farm or a ranch clearly knows that a man has little to no chance of breaking the horns off a full grown healthy bull. Certainly not a full grown healthy bull with horns that haven't been loosened by being beat with a hammer. It really defies common sense to think otherwise. This forum and this thread is hardly the first time that this issue has been gone over.

Not sure if this was directed at me... but if you go back over what I've posted I didn't say otherwise nor have I implied it. Why would I? I spend every day down at the boxing gym and have worked in a professional capacity with the WMC, WBC, and the S-1 in Hong Kong, China and in Thailand so I'm well aware of the health issues facing boxers from pretty much every aspect. The original poster has some seriously flawed concepts of boxers attitudes towards conditioning and injuries - yet he himself has admittedly never fought as an amatuer or as a professional or for that matter had any extensive amount of boxing training.

Yeah no doubt. But it does not happen in epidemic proportions that the original poster is leading us to believe. The 'boxers break' as I have stated before is not ususally an injury that boxers show up with at emergency rooms with... it remains much more an injury relegated to domestic abuse cases and frat boys who in moment of drunke bravado punch concrete walls.

You're preaching to the choir.

 

Go on, pull the other one.

Ignoring the obvious problems of severe abrasions and infection that this would entail I have a term for you; shin splints. Our bodies were not designed to run on concrete, good running shoes are not an option they are a necessity.

 

You're also conditioning the skin not bone.

 

Slip-yeah,I knew there were films of Oyama.Hellsender just mentioned televised competitions,which I'd never heard of in "horn shearing".And having grown up on a dairy farm I was always a bit skeptical(if for no other reason than that the bulls head wasn't locked in a vise hence it could "give" with the impact,but not the only reason, having seen the inside layering of horns),but figured if anybody could it was probably Oyama.Some horns are actually pretty thin.Still tough,tho"..I mentioned he said two or three times (I don't remember which) 'cause I've read up to fifty times.I sure wasn't buying that.I'm familiar with the controversy about this.

The broken hand thing was for Hellsender's comment on boxers not caring if they broke a hand.If you'd said something like that I would have fainted.(Sorry you thought it may have been directed at you)I mentioned the "incidents" reported in Ring simply because you said to him to cite examples of boxers breaking their hands in streetfights.But again,I figured you already knew this.And yeah,it certainly doesn't happen on a regular basis.

The "I'll believe Oyama" was in reference to the hammer on knuckle training.

Running barefoot on concrete?Shin splints AND knee damage.I really have to disagree with him on that idea!

Keep that choir singin'.