My Experience with "Iron Fist", Iron Training

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by hellsender, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Good.
    Now I'll go through point by point and respond to you post.

    Err... arthritis is not urban myth.

    What guys? Just using your muscle in everyday life places stress on the bones. The force of gravity itself exerts stress on the bones.
    In all my years as a trainer and as a fighter I've never run across a significant amount of people who told themselves 'I better not stress my bones'.

    I have however run into a ton of noobs that advocate exactly what your advocating. :rolleyes:

    Wrong. You need to do a simple course in basic physiology and sport medicine. The pain you feel from stressing your joint has nothing to do with any healing process. It is directly caused by extreme stress placed on the said joints or connective tissue.

    If you dislocate your shoulder and it's painful - that's a result of the injury. Not a signal of any healing process at all. Many people never manage their injuries correctly and they certainly aren't healing anything up by simply experiencing pain.

    Obviously. :rolleyes:

    Again - obviously. This highschool level physiology. But that doesn't anymore support the kind of training your talking about than anything else you've pointed out.

    Please use a bit of common sense. Obviously (or maybe this is new for you) there are generally accepted ways of strengthening your wrists and bones in your hand. Working on a heavy bag is one of them. That's best done wearing wraps and bag gloves.

    But what your suggesting is tantamount to the idiotic rumours over the years that people should bang their bones with all the pain they can take in order to toughen them like steel. Only anyone with common sense knows that's rubbish.

    Too look for it you had to know about it and understand it first. Which you obviously don't because it's the process of increasing the bone density. Which is what you are on about. :rolleyes:

    No one doubts that. Like I said it's highschool physiology 101. But what you're talking about is different to the kinds of stress placed on the skeletal system during weight lifting. Vastly different.

    Don't put words in my mouth. The basic concept here is increasing bone density through repeated impact. The process that results in the increased bone density is called ossification. Like I said - learn to use the search function here at MAP... this subject has been gone over in quite some detail by myself and others.

    Are you trying to be clever? If so... try harder. :rolleyes:

    Which is exactly why people who train day in day out on heavy bags with high force and high repetition wear wraps and gloves. ;)

    Err... sever tendons?
    You really sound like you haven't got a clue. Can you show even a single case of a severed tendon due to someone training with proper boxing gear and then taking it off and then somehow magically severing a tendon?

    :D

    This I gotta see. I'll expect you to post a credible source for that.

    Justify what? Why would I need to justify safe training methods that have worked for decades?

    What boxers have you seen arguing it's OK to break bones in their hands. Again - back this up. You said it... please stand by it. I've called you on it and I think you're making this up as you go. No boxer I've trained with, trained or read interviews with thinks it's OK to break bones in their hands. Why would they - it's contrary to everything they're trying to achieve.

    You have no idea what you're talking about.
    Boxer breaks are not somehow mysteriously vanquished by the rubbish training methods you speak of.
    Boxers breaks come from poor technique. Most boxers these days don't get them because they hit properly with good tech. Boxers breaks are seen primarily in emergency rooms from domestic disputes where untrained people punch their wives or take their anger out on a wall.

    Nooooo... really?


    You relish the obvious don't you?


    I suggest you look up the term non sequiter. :rolleyes:

    I'd suggest you learn some basic physiology before you start handing out warnings on exotic things like Iron whatever. ;)

    I fail to see the advantage of callouses on your knuckles or heavily increasing the size of your knuckles. :rolleyes:

    LOL! :D
    When was the last time you met a cocconut that punched back?
    Again - there are plenty of people who don't train anything like this that can punch someone in the face and break their nose or bust up their orbital bone.

    You've done nothing your entire thread but back up your arguement with psuedoscience. Furthermore you don't appear to know basic physiological functions related to the skeletal system that your so keen on talking about.
    I don't reallly think you're lying. I think you simply are ignorant of the process.

    Again - nothing new. Basic highschool physiology. But this no more supports the sort of training your suggesting than does an article on avoiding breast cancer. It's a non sequiter.

    Again - no one brought this up but you. You seem to be talking down to everyone as if nobody understand the basic underlying principles of exercise physiology. You certainly are off to a great start here at MAP.

    No kidding. Did you figure that out all by yourself? :rolleyes:

    Yeah no kidding if you go punching something harder than your fist you can do damage. Try telling us something we don't know. Because up to this point you've done nothing to support your theories of Iron whatever training.

    Please provide credible references for the instances above. I'll wait... but frankly I don't really expect it to come to much.

    I'm really quite curios - you seem to have a penchant for wanting to hand out so much information about training to everyone here. Care to let us know exactly what you background is in sport medicine or sports science? Furthermore it'd be interesting to find out what your boxing background is.
    Have you fought competitively and if so under what rules and what sanctioning body? What gym did you train boxing at and under what coach?

    Surely someone who has such deep understanding of the issues of training won't have a problem with that sort of information being posted. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    While you're at it... use the search function to look for a thread titled:

    Mas Oyama and his Bull

    It's here at MAP and it's quite lengthy. It will help to dispell some other myths about him that you're harping on about. Pleae do yourself a favor and read the thread - it will help you to understand what is fact and what is a contrived PR stunt. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  4. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    Look, I can see where this is heading. Right off you take a sentence of mine, pull it out of context, obvious context... and then reply to this sentence out of context as if I said this thing.

    I did NOT say arthritis is an urban myth and I know you are not stupid. You know I did not say that.

    THAT is how you start this off.

    What did I say? Did I say "arthritis is an urban myth"? If you take that sentence out of context, then yeah, I did say that. How clever of you! But, it is a clever lie.

    I said, in context, that this kind of training does not lead to arthritis.

    You know that, I know you know that.

    ...

    So why the lie? Easy points for a debate? Lies help prove your point? Lies only help prove your point if your point is a lie.

    Dealing with multiple posts in this forum is a pain, I have to manually insert the quote tags, I may go through your post later on and reply, point by point to make it easier.

    You start off this way and dealing with multiple threads in this forum system is a pain. So, I may just make a post per point you have raised to make it easier for me.

    You have started out very poorly, however. Please stick to the facts. Just because you personally do not like something doesn't mean it isn't true.

    Now, on this point: find me a case where arthitis is proved to be caused from iron fist training. One case. Use google. Solid reference, not some dude telling a story about a friend of a friend. Not your own post warning people about how iron training causes blindness and cancer.

    Give me a link.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  5. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    Just as I thought.
    You can't back up what you posted.

    I suggest you do some reading here at MAP. Learn to use the search function and get up to speed on the basics of physiology as they relate to what your talking about and then perhaps you try to post in a coherent manner that doesn't dodge direct questions regarding what you've posted.

    Until you do that... I don't really see anyone at MAP taking you the least bit seriously. ;)

    I sure don't.
     
  6. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    Dude, you lied. You claimed I said arthritis is a myth, knowing full and well I did not say that in context. That was your first point.

    I will get around to your other points. I am sure they are just as full of rhetorical nonsense. As even this post is.

    Iron Fist training does not cause arthritis. IF it did you could prove your accusation and you wouldn't have resorted to lying.

    I know this, you know this... and anybody who reads this knows this. (Though I am sure your friends will back you up here).

    Anyway, you are the one making the accusation here, you claim Iron Fist training causes arthritis. Prove that. You didn't. You couldn't. So, maybe that is why you resorted to this tactic.

    Do you feel better about yourself now?

    Maybe your friends will pat you on the back... but that is pretty meaningless in the long run.

    Iron Fist training does not cause arthritis. If there was a known case of it doing so - besides guys claiming they have a friend of a friend who has had this happen - you could prove it. You could find something on google. Something substantial.

    It is like if I say boxing causes cancer. It would be totally stupid. Why would I say some absurdity like that? Because I don't like boxing? How would I back up such a lie? I couldn't.
     
  7. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    Okay point two. Like I said I am breaking this up because it is a pain to deal with threading in this forum bbs.

    I am a noob, you claim, for stating my experience about Iron Fist training... because other noobs you have heard advocate this.

    A lot of noobs talk about how they are into boxing. So what.

    A lot of advanced martial artists practice some type of hard core "iron" conditioning. Are all of these guys "noobs"? Of course not.

    As for the sentence, again, you wrenched it out of context to make your point about something I am essentially not saying. I could wrench words out of your sentences, or letters, and make you say anything.

    In context, what was I saying here? Simply that a lot of guys lie to themselves so they don't have to do this kind of training.

    Simple.

    You are lying to yourself. You practice boxing and don't condition your hands, you will break your hands if you ever hit someone with the gloves off. Maybe you know how to regulate the force with which you hit and can avoid this. But, you know this is a fact.

    You also know there are guys who train at this conditioning and break concrete blocks and don't break their hands.

    I am just making these claims. No one is going to come at me on that. You would have to claim boxers don't break their hands in real fights many times... and you know I can prove that. We all know cases where this has happened.

    We all also know martial arts breaking is real. You know guys can break concrete, coconuts and all sorts of things with their fist. You know you can't.

    Does that matter in the ring? Maybe not. I don't know. I do not care.
     
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Please stop your babble.
    Please back up what you posted.
    Please stop while your ahead. :D
     
  9. hellsender

    hellsender New Member


    That is ancedotal. I have had boxer's - not all boxers and they are probably mostly just guys that hang out at a boxing gym, who knows - respond to me before that they don't care if they break their hands when they hit someone with the gloves off.

    I don't know why you would want to ever hit someone with the gloves off. Maybe you wouldn't break your hand doing that. Maybe you wear thin enough gloves and have conditioned your hand bones and joints over decades or whatever it is... so your hands can handle your hit against someone's jawbone.

    I know, we all know, how experienced, talented boxers have done this, however.

    Boxer's Break:
    http://www.google.com/search?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22boxer's%20break%22&sa=N&tab=iw

    This one shows some X-Rays:
    http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=boxer's+break&btnG=Search

    Why are you pretending this is not the case?

    I do know there are many times boxer's don't break their hands with the gloves off. Let me get that off right away. It happens.

    They were lucky.

    You train for what you do. You train to be able to hit with the gloves off, you can do that. You train to be able to hit with the gloves on, you do that.

    You use lighter gloves -- you are conditioning yourself to a degree. It takes a lot longer and you are safer. But that safety remains limited.
     
  10. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I said that is "in the healing process". "In".

    Does pain mean you are healing? Not necessarily, of course. Does it often mean you have made progress and will heal? Yes.

    Maybe you do pain free training and never have delayed muscle soreness. You can grow without the burn. It is just that the burn is so minor you are not noticing it.

    Some guys say you don't have to go for the burn in weightlifting. Good for them. Some guys never have training which causes pain for them. Good for them.

    I am a big believer in the principle of inducing controlled injuries and allowing for healing for maximum effectiveness. When you exercise effectively your body is being injured, often on a microscopic scale, and it builds itself up stronger in the healing process.
     
  11. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    What, you said you wanted me to answer everything you said.

    Now you don't?

    Anyway, I am answering your post point by point, piecemeal, as I have time here and there while working. I want it there for google searches, so people who are thinking about this kind of thing can get the facts.

    I am sick of the dogma and bs old wive's tales being passed around on the subject out there.

    Not only are guys unnecessarily breaking their bones in real fights... but a lot of martial artists who focus on the striking arts could be much more powerful -- in real fights.

    Probably doesn't mean anything for style tournaments or point competitions.

    I think it could be useful in the ring for contact striking fights, but I have no proof of that.

    Too many boxer's out there like to think in a box.
     
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Of course it is. Like most of what you've posted.
    :D

    Ok what boxers? Training at what gyms?
    You're making it up as you go and you know it. :D

    LOL!:D
    With then number of the people in the world gettin' socked in the jaw in street scraps you'd think there'd be an epidemic of broken hands... But you know what their ain't. Not even close. :rolleyes:

    But it's not the norm. That's why it's so noted when it happens because it's the exception - not the norm.

    Again you post links that you think somehow support your case. But they don't. The injury is called a boxers break - that doesn't mean that the all come from boxers. :bang:

    Again stop putting words in peoples mouths. You've got enough tripe of your own your spewing and are having a hard time keeping it straight at that. So please...

    Again you're pulling this out of your ass. There is no pandemic of boxers breaks amongst boxers because they don't Iron Coconut Breaking training. :D
    You train for what you do. You train to be able to hit with the gloves off, you can do that. You train to be able to hit with the gloves on, you do that.

    Please just stop - you're becoming like a comedy routine here at MAP.
    Safey remains limited.... ROTFLMAO!!!!

    You mean as opposed to your uber deadly fists of metal coconut smashing techniques. :D
     
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Again - who is out there breaking their bones?
    Please cite examples of boxers who have broken their hands in street fights.
    Surel if it's in the epidemic proportions you're mentiong then you'll have no problem finding plenty to post. Surely these are boxers and not anecdotal conveniences like the ones you've mentioned before - who 'hang around boxing gyms'... LOL!
    I'd bet you can't even manage a single citation. :p

    You apparently don't know any real boxers. So how would you know what they think?

    If you're so sick of the 'dogma and wives tales' then I suggest you get better at substantiating what it is your claiming. A good place to start would be in understanding basic physiological processes. Which will neccessarily include ossification - which up until this point you had no idea the word even existed let alone what it meant.

    Step away from the keyboard and go do some research and then come back when you're better able to take a crack at it. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  14. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I have time to handle a few points he made here, now.

    Apologies for breaking up the thread to readers.


    No, it isn't obvious. A lot of people don't know this kind of thing. Your arguments about Iron Fist training show that you think inducing controlled stress on your fists won't fit this model. You have stated arthritis and Heterotopic ossification are caused by this kind of training. (You did not state "Heterotopic ossification", but you stated "ossification" and statements you have made have led me to believe that this is the condition you are talking about.)

    Your arguments appeal to that ignorance. It is a popular ignorance because people like to come up with theories which allow them to work out less and gain more benefits... people especially like to believe these theories.

    'Iron Fist', 'Iron Body', 'Iron Shin', and etc type of training all operates under these principles.

    You stated 'Iron Fist' is different because of the small bones and complicated nature of the hand. The foot, however, has far more bones then the hand. People do this kind of training on their feet. That can be just as dangerous.

    You essentially do this kind of training on your feet anyway, against a bag, depending on what kind of bag you use, especially. You wear gloves on your hand, but not on your feet. (Excepting, to a degree, the heel, side of the foot, and balls of your feet which are well conditioned already -- though not conditioned enough. The instep is not, however very well conditioned naturally. )

    Doing this kind of conditioning for head butts is much more dangerous. But, if you want to use head butts, you better do this kind of conditioning.




    I do not think you know how to condition your hand for martial arts purposes.

    You should have stated this right off.

    I have said you have to start off light. One way is to do knuckle pushups on carpet. Another way is to lighly hit a piece of metal. Or to use softer material which you hit. I think people are smart enough to know what "light" means, regardless.

    You NEVER get into hitting metal or anything else hard until you are able to do that safely. I know, you do not believe that, but I can do that now -- so can a lot of people.

    But, I have been clear about all of this. Others are clear about this. You are purposefully muddying the waters on the issue in order to justify your misinformed point which is based on nothing but hearsay and has the credibility of old wives tales.

    You don't do this kind of training. Great. I do. I am fine. So do a lot of others. They are fine.

    You do boxing. You get hit in the head. I assume you are doing fine. You get your brain jostled around, but haven't turned into Muhommad Ali.

    Did you know that even a minor head injury can - decades later - result in a fatal condition? Did you know many people are walking around like this... and they usually won't catch the problem in time because it requires a MRI to detect it?

    So, get your head hit by a trained boxer - wearing gloves - again and again... or do carpet knuckle pushups. Which is more dangerous?

    And for those wondering about training using knuckle pushups -- you progress from carpet to say, lineoleum, finally to concrete.

    Do a knuckle pushup on concrete and see how that feels.

    THAT is a valid way of performing this kind of conditioning. Simple knuckle pushups.

    Dangerous? Well, some guys wear protective gear even when they are eating lest they stab their eye with a fork. Yeah, I guess knuckle pushups on hard surfaces can be dangerous to them.
     
  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I just looked back over your original post... pure comedy gold. :D

    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Especially when you pick and choose what you want out of physiology to support your halfbaked theorys and Kung Fu Iron Cococnut fantasies.

    Your post is exactly what people need to be aware of when looking for training methods.

    Charlatans abound. :bang:

    Be forewarned with the unsubstantiated nonsense you've posted already you won't get a very warm welcome in the H&F forum here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  16. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    My links do support what I am saying... I provided evidence to what I have said.

    You are advocating hitting hard objects - people's skulls - without gloves. I am saying that is dangerous without gloves off conditioning. You can break your fist. I have said you might not. It is common to happen.

    It does happen more frequently to boxer's because you develop speed and so your fist has a lot more power behind it -- but the fist is not properly conditioned. Untrained guys don't have that kind of force behind their hits, usually. Not enough to break their hands when they hit. It happens a lot, though.

    I am sure you have plenty enough force to break your hand if you hit something hard with the gloves off. Anyone who practices boxing for very long does.

    These cases are often cited... because they involve big name boxers. Or because we know someone who did this or it happened to us.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q="Mike+Tyson"+broken+hand

    Of course, boxer's sometimes even break their hands using gloves. The human head is harder then most bags out there. It is no surprise.

    I did not post the link to prove that a 'boxer's break' means the person is a trained boxer, however, of course. It is named that, however, because it happens with boxers.

    I guess all of that is hilarious to you. Great, whatever.

    You can't figure out that it is safer to, say, do concrete pushups for conditioning, or slowly building up bare fist conditioning... then to be forced to hit something hard with full force. And that is hilarious to you.

    So, you train a student. He practices punching. He gets fast and powerful. Some guy in a bar comes at him. He hits the guy. He breaks his hand.

    His training was not for that situation. His training was for the ring. He shouldn't have been hitting somebody in a bar if he was not training for that.

    But, that isn't the way you look at it, is it?

    Western boxing rocks in fights. Incredible. I think, hands down, there is nothing more effective.

    I am sure you are a good boxer and a good trainer.

    But, you are set in your old ways. You don't care if one of your student's hits something will force force with his fist. Something hard. You let him do it. You trained him to do that, only he was supposed to wear a glove.

    You pretend people don't have this kind of thing happen. I know a lot of guys that hit stuff before in anger, walls, whatever. We all do. We all probably did this as teenagers, and maybe we do this sometimes as adults. Untrained... you might not have enough force to break your hand. Trained? You definitely have that force.

    Anyway, I haven't said "oh I am uber" whatever. We know breakers can break people's skulls. No doubt boxer's can. The only difference is the boxer breaks his hand into little pieces at the same time. An untrained boxer, that is.

    It used to be that bare knuckle fights were the norm.

    Now, those guys, they were really tough street fighters.
     
  17. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    So, I am a liar and a charlatan?

    Yet, you have proved nothing. You just throw out old, tired jibes. I have proven in at least one post you are willing to lie to prove your point.

    You claim bare knuckle conditioning, training, causes arthritis and heterotopic ossification. You presented no evidence for this. What is that? What other conditions does it cause, doctor?

    Is it smarter to condition yourself for bare knuckle fighting... or not to, and then engage in it?

    This is why it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks.

    Knuckle pushups on concrete... one way to do iron fist conditioning... few people can disagree with. But, patter away at an iron plate, and whoa, you are causing tumors and calification in the fleshy part of the body and arthritis and...

    But, go ahead, don't condition for bare knuckle fighting, then engage in it and tell me how safe and smart it was to not prepare for that.

    I am not laughing... but you are a joke.
     
  18. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    So what? The truth is more important then what people think. Go ahead and say what people want to hear.

    It isn't the truth, though.

    You don't train yourself for bare knuckle fights, don't engage in them. It is unsafe for you.

    There isn't any mysticism or baloney about any of this. Bare knuckle fights is where boxing got founded.

    It killed a lot of guys was the problem.

    You probably think MA breaking is all smokes and mirrors. But, you don't want to say that because you know it is too established and too proven.

    So, you talk about tradition and your experience... but, you know people have been training this way for thousands of years. You know it is effective... on some level, deep inside, you know this kind of training is effective.

    You know there are thousands who do have this in their training. You don't.

    You train for the ring. You train to hit with gloves on. You are not trained to hit with the gloves off, which is all I am talking about here. It is not a big deal. You make a big deal out of this.

    Anyway, this is going nowhere, but I think there is a good thread now for people googling the subject. I am sure your mind won't be changed till you actually have some guy come back whom you trained who broke his hand hitting something -- and even then you probably won't change your mind.

    But, what I have said is true. I have said many true things. So, I know that you have to live with that. I know how you appear here and what lies you have said... and I know, on some level, you know it. I know what I have said is true and you know it is... and I know it just takes a long time for it to sink in. I know it will stay with you, as true things do.

    And that gives me great satisfaction.

    And over time, when I think about this, I will continue to derive satisfaction from knowing you have to deal with these things I have said.
     
  19. Thelistmaker

    Thelistmaker bats!

    Hellsender,

    I would love to know what is your opinion on one finger and two finger and stands?
     
  20. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I don't do that, I also don't use knuckle pushups for conditioning, I should note, it is just an effective method for doing that. A lot of schools have people do these simply on wood floors. Mike Reeves, a breaking champion, who wrote some books on martial arts and breaking relies on bare knuckle pushup conditioning on concrete. (He also has used makiwaras, however).

    I don't like pushups, though I know they are incredibly effective. I belong to a gym and own a prospotfitness machine (an automatic smith machine). I love smith machines for developing upper body strength.

    Does weightlifting condition the underlying skeletal system -- absolutely, and it builds hard core callouses.

    It isn't focused enough, however for breaking with the fist, but I guess could be great for iron palm and general hand conditioning.

    Granted, I have always noticed more stress on my skeletal system with heavy weight workouts. Often times martial artists want to train with lighter weights for higher and faster reps per set. (Heh, Jackie Chan trains that way, anyway.)

    Would one or two finger pushups condition your fingers for, say, eagle claw? I would definitely think so considering the above.

    Again, the surface you use here matters. Carpet is considered very light conditioning surface... concrete very hard. Wood somewhere in between. Do these on concrete and you are set to go.

    I would think the same is true with feet, honestly. Some survivalists condition their feet on the outdoors. You can tell a big difference in conditioning from running with running shoes that are heavily padded versus running on concrete with bare feet.

    These things said - personally - I have found that you want to train how you fight. Benny the Jet noted this about kicking -- he stated he always kicks hard and fast and that is the secret of his speed. (In book, Martial Arts Masters, or another book from that series).

    This is not an absolute truism directly, because you can train very fast and hard but with imperfect form... but also train very slow with perfect form... and get positive benefits from both training methods. eg, it is cumulative.

    What I mean here is that yes, you will condition your fingers for some hard core strikes this way, but you likely won't be conditioning your joints for the impact... and you will not be properly conditioned on the front of your fingers. Likewise, it is, of course, important to combine that kind of conditioning with actual practicing of the strike you wish to do.

    That said, the movement and arm positioning of the pushup should be as close as possible to the actual move you plan to make. That is an "of course", but people do not always take these matters into mind when doing it.
     

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