My Experience with "Iron Fist", Iron Training

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by hellsender, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I am a security researcher by trade... so I did a lot of research in these things over several years. And, I have seen a lot of misinformation out there about iron conditioning... so I wanted to make a post people could find who were curious about these methods.

    I am not confessing to be such a great martial artist. Not at all. I have studied under various arts and have a respect for a wide variety of them. But, iron training, conditioning of this type is often very poorly documented, so I am writing this post for you guys who have wondered about it.

    First of all, I patterned this work off of key martial artists like 'Iron Fist' Pan Qing-Fu and 'Godhand' Matsuyama Oyama. I noticed that, historically, this kind of conditioning has been centric to almost all of the striking arts (as opposed to purely grappling and many internal arts). From Korean old style Tae Kwon Do to Muay Thai to various forms of Chinese Shaolin arts... to Wing Chun... this kind of conditioning has been used.

    While Bruce Lee is noted as saying in a movie 'boards don't hit back', books on him show that he would use this kind of conditioning even after he dropped Wing Chun which uses hard wooden training dummies.

    I have a theory why this kind of conditioning is often left out in many modern schools: one is that contact point based competitions have currently removed the need for increasing one's actual striking force. Another is that this kind of conditioning is very difficult to do. It hurts. If you do not do it carefully you can really get into trouble.

    As for breaking... breaking is for what? Measuring strike force and capability. Today, we can somewhat judge force by how far we move a bag, or by getting force meters which can be had for relatively cheap. There are also rebreakable boards and experienced partners can give us some feedback on how hard our strikes are.

    Unfortunately, it has not yet become very popular to be scientific about these processes. I think that kind of trend is apparent often in security, however. And we have all learned many lessons from what science (one could say) MMA brought us. (And I agree with most on the various problems there, but of course, it still has some degree of effectiveness in bringing out methods which work in a pseudo-scientific manner -- granted many blows are disallowed which are basic in MA and gloves are worn, amongst other issues there).

    The science sorrounding these matters is not yet fully understood. We do know that practicing speed tears down muscle and builds up muscle which is faster. We know that practicing strength tears down muscle and builds up muscle which is stronger. We know similiar effects happen with the nervous system and skeletal system. Among these the skeletal system is particuliarly adaptive.

    The best theory I have heard is we induce microtears and microfractures on muscle, bone, and the nervous system. If we do too much we can break the bone or tear the muscle. If we do enough our goal is to induce controlled injury.

    I adapted a basic strategy from weightlifting on these matters of iron training. You work out hard and then you let yourself heal up. After you are healed, you repeat the process. This strategy works well, I have seen. Does it work better to not be so stringent about waiting for the healing process? I doubt it but do not know for sure.

    I do not rely on Chinese herbs and medicines to accelerate healing. Cold is proven by western science to accelerate healing shortly after inducing injuries... and heat is known to be good for the days thereafter. Additionally, proper diet helps - the same kind of diet you find bodybuilders use (though perhaps more calcium) - however I think most westerners will already be eating enough of what they need. There are various other scientific studies out there about new techniques to increase healing such as oxygen treatments or near infrared treatments, but these are not things I have extensively tested.

    I have not tested Chinese herbs and medicine for accelerating healing, I should note, so I do not scientifically dismiss these. They simply are generally expensive and I have not seen any good studies proving them. I do find balms such as tiger balm helps, if only because it helps psychologically relieve some of the pain.

    As far as technique -- the techniques are generally well known. I have found I prefer to use a steel plate myself. I would not use heavy bags without gloves until you have a good year of conditioning behind you on your fists, anyway. Canvas as a material will create callouses. As will anything which tears the skin. This is why I generally prefer hard metal. (Hard metal will also eventually tear the skin, but not as much as rope or canvas.)

    Now I am saying here I actually do not want callouses. This goes against most thought out there. Callouses are extremely useful in these things. Just get a gel glove and try breaking something wearing that as opposed to without. It is the same concept.

    Personally, I have been able to escape having callouses. Some people think this conditioning is all about the callouses. No, it is all about the bones. You also kill the nerve endings doing this kind of training. This said 'Iron Fist' Pan is said to have iron like callouses. There are a very few pictures of him out there on the web and his callouses are generally ugly and nasty.

    For Iron Fist training I actually use the three knuckles instead of the two, ala Bruce Lee and older boxer method. I find this reduces wrist injuries and is more natural. (From Iron Fist Pan's callouses he appears to focus on his two middle knuckles.)

    Do my knuckles look deformed? No, except for one which I made a mistake on in early training. It is huge. My knuckles do look very deformed when I am in the healing cycles. There is minor redness and some size increase. The major noticeable differences however are in density, lack of feeling, the ability to hit things hard without feeling pain or producing redness, and above all, the hardness of them. They feel like metal.

    Important considerations: It is okay to really hit hard objects later on. Start off hitting lighter. I usually continue hitting until the skin just barely breaks. I use a hammer, currently, as it is heavy, and easy to hold and therefore you can chill out, watch television, and practice. (I am a big believer in making training fun -- fun training means training you actually do).

    Do NOT use full strength, but you can hit hard. Start off easy. Do not be impatient. Drive is crucial. It is very, very easy to lose motivation as you can not do this all the time, but it is a once a week thing. (Though you can do some bones Monday, some Tuesday, etc, ala bodybuilding techniques).

    Injuries happen from hitting too hard at first. Iron Fist training is particuliarly dangerous because of the tendons. Wait until the tendons move over before stressing them too hard. (They will, naturally, move over, so when you bend they no longer are in the way).

    If you are stupid or impatient -- do only Iron Palm or Iron Shin or Iron Body. (Or, Iron Head, heh, and so forth...)

    As you guys tend to be pretty smart -- I think you can avoid serious injury.

    (Knuckle pushups appear to be very good as well, I should note. Research is conclusive there... however, I hate pushups and prefer using bags, shadow boxing, and weights for such training. Regardless, I must admit, if you do these fast that is a very optimum work out strategy. A world champion breaker uses fist pushups on concrete, I believe he wrote he does a thousand a day, or some such insanity.)

    As for the hardness factor: Really. Hard to believe. Bones give and it is hard to tell until you actually have this training done. Like with weightlifting you feel the power potential. I am sure that is psychological, but I also do not doubt it is universal and has some solid basis in reality. The hardness of the bones, however, is absolutely empirical and very cool.

    Physically, the bones do increase density, so you are effectively making your fists (for example) into iron fists -- you are making your own sap gloves.
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Riiiiiiiiight.
    LOL! :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  3. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I wrote:

    'The bone feels like metal after this kind of training.'

    I take it that is your subtle way of calling me a liar... and by laughing about it you do not feel you have to provide evidence for your accusations. By not directly coming out and saying, "You are a liar" you avoid actually being seen as someone performing "personal attacks".

    I would prefer you just be direct and call me a liar, if that is the case... but I would also prefer you provide some kind of evidence -- so I know you do not just like calling people names and throwing about false accusations...

    Regardless, this is simple to prove even with basic rhetoric. Granted one has to deal honestly with the simple facts and be willing to apply common sense to them.


    ...

    The density of bone increases with stress put under it.

    Wolff's law:
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=wolff's+law&spell=1

    Increased bone density means increased hardness.

    ...

    Increased bone hardness means your bones feel more like metal.

    Regardless, of course, some people won't want to believe this even though it is common sense and takes only a tiny capability of reasoning to understand what I just wrote above as being true.

    I have found a truism in hard core training: people do not want to do it and they will justify any manner of lie in order to excuse themselves from it. Nobody like that will ever get anywhere substantial.

    This kind of training is intense. You have to hit hard things a lot, you have to wait for it to heal, and you have to do it all over again. That scares some guys. They don't want to hurt. But, if you have done any kind of weight training you know that hurt means growth. It is the same thing for bone training.

    It is crucial for people who are serious to understand you will lie to yourself and give yourself every manner of excuse not to face hard truths. That is how you keep going on. You face the hard truths. You keep on going.

    As far as hardness mattering, as well as just density, try a rubber mallet versus a steel hammer. Or ask someone to kick you with their instep in a roundhouse in the thigh, then ask them to kick you with their shin.

    Regardless, for those who are interested in this kind of thing -- your bone start out spongy and as you continue in the training they feel more and more heavy, pain resistant, and hard. No, they do not become metallic cold in feel, of course, but they become metallic hard -- like a steel hammer.

    There isn't any kind of magic to this. It is science. Anyone can prove it for themselves. It isn't easy, but it is doable and makes sense. Read about guys like Iron Fist Pain Qing-Fu and Mas Oyama. Do you want to be like them -- or do you want to be like these other guys who are in it for the ego?

    They both - and those like them - got hard hits from hard training. Consistent training. You bruise up your bones and flesh, let it heal, then repeat. You do not give up. You look towards the goal and keep doing this week after week. You will see results within the first few months and continue to see results.

    ...

    Anyway... I am sorry this is hard to believe for some people. Do they not believe bones gain density if you give them stress and allow them to heal? Do they not believe that increased density means increased hardness? Do they not believe that extrapolating these truths means you can make your fists hard like metal or rocks?

    I do not know.

    I think it is more of a thing people get into where they practice everyday a certain way... and they get a lot of praise from their peers for this... so they are strongly opposed to concepts outside of their peer approval... though if you wish to be better then everyone else, or a lot of people, you invariably won't get there by doing the same thing everybody else does.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    1) relax

    2) I thought it was rather funny that you were on about your training methods but then went on to say how you managed to bodge one of your knuckles. :D

    3) The term your looking for in terms whereby one attains increased bone density through placing bone under repeated impact stress is called 'ossification'.

    Use the search function here at MAP I've posted on it several times in the last year alone. :rolleyes:

    If you haven't got an understanding of the process of ossification then there really isn't much point in your long winded posts on the subject.

    4) While your at it with you hardkor training you should look into the possibilites of arthritis. ;)

    LOL! :D

    Bones of steel. Riiiight.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  5. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I don’t think its such a good idea to try and induce ossification on a structure such as a hand. As I am sure most people are aware that the hand is made up of many small bones and joints, in fact I think the hand contains the largest amount of bones/joints then any other body part. Calcium growth in the wrong place could potentially mean arthritis and loss of dexterity in the near future. I have read about shaolin iron fist guys whose hands were like sledgehammers in terms of hitting things and dexterity. Personally I don’t really see the point. Something like this does not actually increase the force of your strikes, just the density of your fist, sure it has some effect, but I reckon your better off learning to strike harder. Furthermore, you can always hit hard targets with your palms and soft targets with a fist. I am not saying that it is bad to condition your hands, but to an extent of an iron fist/palm is probably a bad idea. Also apparently if one goes for iron palm training it will, once past a ceratin level make the practitioner sterile, no idea why or how, maybe it’s a myth.

    I would also give some good Dit Da Jow a go, I had some which worked absolutely great on knuckle injuries, really increased healing time quite dramatically.
     
  6. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Where's Sanj when you need him a?

    :D :D
     
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I think really the amount of ossification produced by doing heavy bag work while wearing wraps and bag gloves would be more than enough to suffice. The main difference in ossification in the bones of the hand as opposed to the shin bone (as in Muay Thai) is that the two types of bone are quite different not only in size and strength... but also in the the amount of connective and soft tissue associated with them.

    It doesn't take too much to realize that surface being conditioned on the shins is a different type than that of the knuckles. In a shin you have a prismoid bone that has little or no connective tissue on the surface being conditioned. On the knuckles of the hand you have far more interaction going on between connective tissue and bone.

    It wouldn't strike me as very healthy to start inducing calcium growth into areas where you have connnective tissue and all sort sof subtle interactions between bone and cartilage.
    Agreed. It seems a bit misguided to spend all the time conditioning your knuckles. It seems the far more productive angle would be to improve your agility and your ability to land punches. If you have a fist like iron or steel - it makes prescious difference if you can't actually land a punch.
    I've ofte hear stories of Mas Oyama ending up with severe arthritis in his hands due to his conditioning regimen. While no doubt that Mas Oyama was a pioneer in many respects I can't but help remember all those sickly old bulls that he attacked - the ones which he had the horns loosened first with a hammer. :D
     
  8. Yossarian

    Yossarian Valued Member

    Its not just arthritis you can get, I knew a guy who got vibration white finger from conditioning. When he reached his forties he had to learn to write with his left hand and could no longer tie his shoelaces. He could smash concrete blocks no bother though.
     
  9. NaziKiller

    NaziKiller New Member

    I once, in my childhood, decided it would be smart to do what the Shaolin monks in a documentary were doing.

    I tied down an A4 paper with duct tape to the wall, and punched it very hard, 15 minutes for each hand.

    The following day my right had small vibrations everytime I closed my fist. Never went back to it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    ROTFLMAO!!!!! :D
     
  11. Shotochem

    Shotochem Master of Baby-Do-Jitsu..

    The real reason why most of us do not do this king of training is the wonderful invention of the Brass Knuckles... :cool:

    Seriously though, if you don't want arthritis or worse in your old age don't go banging your fists into solid objects on a regular basis. It can have a great inpact on ones ability to type posts on internet forums. ;)
     
  12. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Why that's utter nonsense, I've been conditioning for ages. Every day at anytime I can find I pound and pound. The only problems I've noticed is a persistant swelling that oddly enough can only be lessened with a good pounding and the pages of all my magazines seem to be stuck together. :confused: :D :p
     
  13. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    [Edit: FIRST, on point 2 -- " I thought it was rather funny that you were on about your training methods but then went on to say how you managed to bodge one of your knuckles. :D "

    NO, I did not say what you are implying I said. When I started out I was careless and impatient and merely hitting a soft bag without gloves on. This caused my knuckle - my middle finger on my left hand knuckle - to become huge. I am just being honest here. You have to be careful. Is it scary? Yes. Would I want to get hit by it? No way. Is it stronger? Of course. Is it broken or weak or something. No, far from it.]


    Thank you for explaining your issues... with what I was saying. It is easier to deal with that way.

    Arthritis... no, I have found no scientific study which states this. It is largely an urban myth. It is something guys tell themselves to not stress their bones. If you stress your joints and connecting tissues you will feel pain afterwards. That is in the healing process. You have to let your body heal and give it time. This is the same situation in any sports. However, if you do not exercise your body will experience atrophy, degradation. This is true on the skeletal system. People can look this up... it is well known that weightlifting puts stress on the skeletal system, for instance, and this is good therapy for osteoporosis (weakening of the bones).

    Arthritis has to do with the joints. You are going to be stressing the joints whether you always use gloves and paddings or not.

    As for "ossification", I was not looking for that term. That really doesn't tell anyone anything. Do you doubt that stressing the skeletal system increases bone density, my impression is people well know of this effect? If so, besides the Wolff's Law link I can provide numerous scientific studies of late. But, it is pretty basic stuff.

    You may mean to try to bring up a different condition called "Heterotopic ossification (HO)"... which some people are afraid of happening with stressing of the skeletal system. This issue is not related whatsoever to iron training. That is equally as absurd.

    And the boogie man doesn't come out to get you... if you take your gloves off.

    As for the damage I did do... I did cause one of my knuckles to become larger then it should be on my weaker hand. I admit that. I also admit I did that merely from hitting the bag when I was not well trained enough with the gloves off.

    I have also fractured a bone in my foot before, and need to get that fixed sometime. I do not try to harden my foot. So that happened. It was untrained. I could kick fast, because I had trained my kicking speed, but I unintentionally hit with my foot, so it busted.

    The points there being that: skipping this kind of training is very dangerous -- if you are ever going to take the gloves or padding off. You will break something and you can sever tendons and cause other nasty damage.

    You are a boxer... and I am not sure how you justify that. Usually I have seen boxer's justify that by arguing that it is okay to break the bones in their hands, no big deal. Okay then. Get a boxer's break or worse. Some breaks are not able to be healed properly and you can permanently put yourself out of the ring.

    These things said. I am not a doctor. All sports can be dangerous. Iron Palm training is much safer then Iron Fist training. If you are stupid, or impatient, forget about it. Likewise, do not do knifehand training because that can be even more dangerous... and definitely don't try to do head butt training.

    Like any kind of serious excercise you have to go slow. You have to know the real dangers. Iron Fist training... you can break your bones in your fist or you can sever your tendons IF you do not proceed carefully.

    IF you build up callouses... you can make your fists look really ugly (though I think there is some beauty to that kind of ugliness, many won't). Depending on how you train you can also heavily increase the size of your knuckles.

    As for "steel", I did not say you get as hard as steel. Of course.

    I hate to make the comparison to breaking... because the two things don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, breaking is just a guage... but breaking is real. That is, martial arts breaking. Now, one martial artists can break a coconut - which is about equal to the resistance of a human skull - and another can't. And people want to say that the guy who can't is more effective then the guy who can? And they want to pretend that is logical?

    Forget about it.

    If you do not want to do some kind of training... don't give false reasons for doing it. Claiming "science says you will get arthitis from iron training" without having any documented proof - ever - and finding many cases of documented evidence absolutely against that... what is that? That is dogma. That says people are lying.

    Actually, I will leave people with a simple reference on "osteoporosis weightlifting":
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=osteoporosis+weightlifting

    Seriously.

    If you want bad health, don't train. If you want bad health, overtrain. But we well know today that what you don't use you begin to lose -- underactivity induces atrophy.

    As for dangerous sports -- boxing can be very dangerous. Why? Getting hit in the head can be extremely dangerous. We all know that. I like boxing but I won't pretend that is not a danger.

    But, really, any sport can be dangerous. If you train in the martial arts with pads and gloves only... just remember that is what you are training for. Take those off and you can permanently ruin something.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  14. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    So, show me one documented case of this.
     
  15. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    Sap gloves are more effective then brass knuckles. Both are illegal about anywhere you go.

    Arthritis is not caused by this kind of training. Possibly it could be... if you train improperly. The reverse is true if you train properly. You strengthen your joints if you train properly.

    There is no documented case of this ever happening, however. It is an old wives tale guys tell themselves to justify not doing this kind of training.
     
  16. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    If you lift heavy weights effectively you will feel pain for several days afterwards.

    You will find your appetite increased and your need to sleep increased.

    If you do almost any kind of exercise where you are untrained -- you will have a lot of pain the next day and often for several days afterwards.

    Who hasn't done some hard sports or even just walked or run somewhere and found that to happen?

    Here is a real danger: if you try and lift too much weights you can tear a muscle. Bottomline. Same thing with this kind of training. You start out soft and you work your way up. You can get lucky, but don't try for it.

    Now, I know you guys are not completely igorant of how widespread this kind of training is... even with your example of Shaolin Monks -- you know they did really do this. And there was a lot of them.

    Mas Oyama. 'The Godhand'. The guy cut off the horns of bulls in open, televised competition. Does anybody doubt that? Does anybody doubt what MA breakers do? We know these things are facts.

    So, why lie to yourself about it? And does it help martial arts to lie about it?

    I have studied brazilian jiu jitsu and some internal arts... great stuff. I have heard guys say you can use the internal martial arts to break. Never seen that proven -- ever. What I have seen from the internal arts is some great movement, some great dodging, some great dexterity. It helps your joints not atrophy. Grappling arts -- you don't even ever have to stress yourself with these. You very well might. I got ringworm from training. It is common. Guys have broken things before. I have had all sorts of serious pains and bruises from such training. You heal up, you move on.

    You heal up, you get stronger.

    Very basic principle of almost any manner of fighting training.

    What is really dangerous is when you practice your hits and kicks... and then you end up kicking something that isn't a soft bag or hitting something with the gloves off. THAT is dangerous.

    You didn't train for that.

    We usually don't nowadays because we can carry weapons, often, and we tend to live in areas which are well policed. Often we can get by with just some basic hits to soft, dangerous areas or some grappling moves.

    Point based competition has weakened the need for these kinds of skills... and demonstrations based on beauty with no requirement for proof of power has as well.

    Nothing wrong with studying the martial arts in that way.

    But do know what you are doing.
     
  17. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I might give Dit Da Jow a go sometime... I don't see a medical or scientific reason for using it, but there is much we do not know and we can only know from testing.

    For whatever healing I do use a lot of warm baths. I usually skip on cold packs except when I have accidentally hurt myself (no, not from training).

    Again, cold helps in the first few hours (maybe the first twenty four), heat helps after that. But, other things can help and matter as well, as I noted.

    As for increased density... this adds mass. But, speed is more important, we know. Otherwise we would all be just lifting weights (and you can HIT when you do that, but... there is reaction time and speed of the hit and so forth).

    Advantage wise, the number one advantage is actually: safety. Safety so you don't break something in the real world. Outside of the mats.

    Beyond that... there is the increased hardness and density. You make your fists into brass knuckles, into sap gloves. It is a weapon you always have with you. Hardness does matter when it comes to striking.

    We all know boxers and MMA guys who have had serious problems because they broke a foot or hand. That doesn't happen if you train this way.

    Honestly, you train in boxing, hit someone in a bar, they are going to go down. And you probably just broke your hand. The faster you can hit, the harder, the more likely you will do that.

    Nobody wants to be in a situation where you use your skills to kill someone, and outside of the ring -- you can do that if you use your skills. We all know that... if not, believe me, a lot of guys are there in prison who simply killed someone in a bar fight.

    That said, you can use these strikes to disable someone. It is far more dangerous in the real world then grappling still, but it enables you better to deal with multiple opponents.

    Mostly, like knives and guns... which we will hopefully never have to use in real life... it is just that. It is something we may practice at but plan to never use. It gives some level of confidence. It gives some security. Whatever.

    Personally, I like the art. It is just that. Another art.

    It is amazing to see what limits we can push ourselves to and how our body adapts.
     
  18. hellsender

    hellsender New Member


    I doubt that is true that he loosened the bulls horns with hammers first. People make up similiar stories about competition breakers. It is stuff they tell themselves to justify why they don't do this kind of training.

    Hearsay stories really do very little for anything. Regardless, even if he did induce some kind of pain... in older age, that means nothing for all of the martial artists who have not.

    The shin bones are different from the fist, and I have noted that Iron Fist training is tricky. It is that simple. No, it does not cause you to break out in hives nor destroys your joints. Done properly, it strengthens your hand AND your joints. Of course.

    But, there are a lot of guys out there on the internet continuing to pass on these myths... to what avail?

    What about getting your head knocked around in the ring? What is healthy about that? Are you aware of that kind of danger?

    Malformed calcium growths have nothing to do with this kind of training. (I see now you are mixing up "Heterotopic ossification" with the process of ossification -- you come up with a great scare story. Why not say it causes cancer to do this? Wouldn't that be scarier? Granted, you can find pics of people with Heterotopic ossification and they are scary. Nothing to do with this kind of training whatsoever. Old wives tale.

    As for iron shin training, that is safer then iron fist training. Iron Palm training is even safer. Go for that.

    As for not learning how to hit or hit fast and such... more bunk arguments. That is like saying everytime you practice a hook your jab becomes worse because you are spending all of that time practicing a hook -- you don't know how to throw a jab!

    Just more nonsense.

    Girlie nonsense, really.

    Like your argument that I caused a malformed knuckle when I practiced this kind of training. Untrue. Clever ripping out of context what I said. No, I did that by hitting the bag without a glove on when I wasn't properly trained. And regardless, I wouldn't want that knuckle in my face.

    Still, go hit someone and see what happens. See if you break your fist and have to get wires running through it.

    Or tell me what happens when you are old after having a lifetime of your head getting pummeled in the ring, ala Muhommad Ali.

    Get that brain knocked around.
     
  19. hellsender

    hellsender New Member

    I know Muhommad Ali who can barely speak a friggin sentence. I know boxer's who have permantly screwed up their hands. I know weightlifters who have ripped their muscles.

    There can be training damage from this kind or any kind if you are not careful.

    One ancedotal story or two... you guys are just lying to yourselves. You know there are a lot of guys out there who are old and still do these things without any problems.
     
  20. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    The edit button is your friend. ;)
     

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