multiple opponents

Ok, so I need to be a tough son of a bitch, then? Thanks. I'm sure that advice will save my life some day.

Because you see, I always thought that when people attack me, I should roll up in a ball and wait for them to kill me. Possibly even start hitting myself to help them out. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

That's not my point. My point is that you're contradicting yourself. You claimed that you would be able to counter every single hit. If you're getting hit, you're not countering every single hit because at least some of them are getting through.

I know you will get hit in a fight. But you claimed you would be able to counter every hit.

 

Happy to help

 

Rell deel,

Didn't you post that you're from the birmingham area? If so can I ask where do you do/teach your Krav Maga.

Cheers

 

I think we'll have to differ on the point, of what a counter is, again I never said every hit I said every attack, an attack is not nescessarily done as a punch, kick, or whatever, you can tell by a persons body language and general demeanor and their approach, the interview (if there is one of course there may not be if not again body language, I can reccomend two excellent books by Dr Desmond Morris on this very subject, he's not a fighter he's an anthropologist but he tells you all you need to know,) and pre-empt the attack. I don't know what Martial art you practice but I think that you may be assuming that I'm talking about blocking? I'm not I'm talking about blocking in the way that you would probably think, or are famiiar with, What I do is not in a sense blocking at all and unfortunately unless I could show you exactly what I am trying to put across explaining it in writing would be too difficult, and at the moment I don't really have the time to explain as I have too many comittments at present, this is not a cop out! I will try and explain this in greater detail in the near future, when I 've thought it through and can illustrate it accurately, this is a technique I didn't study it's one that I acquired naturally.
I also have the great advantage of having an accurate and very fast knock out punch which in the case of multiple attackers is a very useful tool to have.
Just to add I also attended a Dennis Jones seminar yesterday and his attitiude to multiples again is the same as mine only again, more extreme, he actually reccomended carrying a weapon! His philosophy being your only guilty of being caught in possession of a weapon if you are caught!
I really do reccomend you attend some of the seminars by the people I've mentioned, you will learn something useful and the will tell you in no uncertain terms how to fight in a multiple opponent situation, I think you will be shocked by what you discover.

 

Reel Deal

You said "I've been glassed, bottled, stabbed, hit with brass dusters and shot, the last of which I got a bit of tin for"

I get the impression most of this was prior to you doing Krav Maga is this right?

If so you surivied it and why then do KM?

I have done it all apart from the being shot bit and I am not a doorman - just in with the wrong crowd at wrong time etc but I know people who make it out of this stuff with no martial arts training.

With the above attacks yes unload on them but otherwise there is mostly no need. Also I resent the dig about Timmy Boy hanging on my every word as he is an adult and can think for himself. At your age you should know better than cheap shots....

 

I have done Mo Teague, Dave Turton stuff etc so know what these respected people say but your supporting Dennis Jones who is advising people to break the law and carry a weapon.

Remember your neck of the UK does sound like Iraq but mine is pretty normal so carring a weapon is just STUPID for every day events and also against the law..... This is so daft most people here dont need to be advised on crap like this and the ones who do know it so..........

 

Good lord! I didn't say that I recommend you carry a weapon, I said Dennis Jones did! That is his philosophy not mine! I've used weapons in Battle I know the damage they can do and I have felt them at first hand, I was wounded in the falklands war and I swore never to carry a weapon ever again and I've never wavered from that.
I was just trying to illustrate the fact that my views on self defence and multiple opponents compared to many others including both Mo, Dave, Dennis and many others are quite mild in comparison.
I have never ever carried a weapon (apart from in the service of my country) and never will, I have however used weapons of opportunity against a similiarly armed or more formiddably armed opponent (which the law entitles me to do) this is exactly what I meant about people being shocked at what other fight-experienced instructors recommend as I said, even though you consider where you live is normal, that's your reality I consider where I live as normal that's my reality.
Reality based combat is based on everyones individual needs and REALITY! My reality and individual needs are different to your reality and individual needs therefore I train for my reality you train for yours, Dennis Jones trains for his, Mo Teague (Who is not adverse to fetching out a machete) trains for his, and Dave Turton trains for his. does that make sense? If you don't agree with what these men say that is your reality.But calling people crazy because they are relaying information that other people imparted just to illustrate a point.That is crazy

 

This whole thread span back to the point of you being as I felt over the top in your offering of self-defence and that has been your tact from the begining.

I have said we all have a different walk in life from the begining and I also did say your advise I felt was over the top for 98% of this forum as most people clearly dont mix in the circles you do despite some being door staff etc.

It sounds to me like you should move to a nicer area as it sure as hell sounds rough in your neck of the woods.

As said if you dont go looking for trouble it takes a long time to find you.... I dont go looking anymore as work does not put me in it and I am not 19 anymore and lost the "I must be the hardest" mentality I had as a youth.

Horses for courses but it sounds like you like in a rough place not one I am familiar with in the UK and I have been around so to speak.

 

You still haven't addressed the point. Punches and kicks may not be the only type of attack, but they are a type of attack, and if you don't counter all of them, and you're being hit by at least some of them, YOU ARE NOT COUNTERING EVERY ATTACK.

 

My principle in multiple attackers is even it up.

simple answer to multiple attackers is learn to position yourselfe so your nearest attacker is between you and the rest thus taking it back to a one on one situation. Now obviously this cant work in every situation as they may not all attack from the same direction.

i've always been taught to act most vicious towards the first threat in the attempt to offput any other in attacking you. whether this be using the most simple / effective techniques to end up in the position to say 'you could attack me but i'll have to break your friends arm/wrist ect... before i move on to defending you' or just make yourself look like a complete psycho and put them off.

also since it's multiple attackers i belive in the uk legaly you are allowed to use a weapon (e.g. pool que ect) as long as you dont keep mauling them when the odds are even up (i.e. when their down you cant keep beating them to a pulp). Although i wouldnt quote me on that as the law is a funny thing.

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ground fighting against multiple attackers then leads on to the basics of biting, eye poking, groin strikes to get them off you as soon as you can.

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In response to the original question i'd recomend any style that practices or even talkes about these principles. I study Shorinji Kan jiu-jitsu (TJF) and we occasionally work with mulitple attackers using 'incentivation' punches to create a sence of realism or ground attacks using gloves.

 

Timmy Boy, you might want to recheck that. If you look counter up at www.dictionary.com, you see that counter is returning an attack. They use the example of boxing where for every hit that you receive or parry, you return an attack.

Not that I have been paying much attention to what reel deel has been saying. If he can't even try to post in a reasonable manner with normal grammar/formatting, I don't usually bother to read it. The little of what I read, doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

You can not use a weapon and be above or exempt from the law in the UK. It puts you closer to assault than defence. The fact to be aware of is each case is different in UK Law so you need to use control and the elusive term "Reasonable" comes to mind.

More than one attacker does not mean you can use a pool que and have no risk of going to court, prison etc.

If you do make sure you can justify it....... some cases are valid but its upto a jury to decide so make sure you had good reason. Just cos there is 2 or 3 of them is not enough.

 

I always thought that, in MA terminology, countering something meant stopping it from working and responding with an attack of your own.

 

Hi Spooky
I did reply to an e-mail you sent me you obviously didn't recieve it.
I don't actually instruct Krav, My instructor in Krav Maga is Steve Maycock
and Krav Maga Birmingham is based at Stevie 'B's Gym Station Road Acocks Green from 7:30pm til 8:30 on a tuesday nights.
I recieved an E-mail from you to say that you live near Wolverhampton.
I have recently moved back there to be closer to my daughter, so if you want to travel to Stevie 'Bs' I can arrange to meet you and you can come with me.
Be warned though our membership has been growing very quickly, so much so Steve has decided to have a cut off point at the end of May.
So anyone who wants to join the club will have to go to an induction seminar in order to bring new members up to speed with the rest of the class
So the sooner you contact me the better.
My Business E-mail is: Terms of Service 1.3

 

First off, I did apologise to Tim for my digs, and yes you are right I am old enough to know better, I was a bit tired and Grouchy at the time I replied to the post but that is no excuse, especially to a youngster,(I hope that doesn't sound too patronising it is not meant to be) and after reading it again I do feel bad about it, I have always prided myself on being respectful of others despite their sarcasm and insults, my job has allowed me to develop quite a thick skin over the years and I am usually a gentleman however this time I was not. I raise my hand and once again I apologise .
Yes you're right I did all this stuff before the Krav and I did survive otherwise I wouldn't be writing this now.
The reason for doing Krav, Well I've done many Traditional Martial arts up to a level of fifth dan, and I've high graded in others too, but I found them some what wanting in regard to combat on the (covert) Battlefield and practically useless on the street, a lot of them needed a hell of a lot of adjusting to be in any way effective.
My initial interest for Krav Maga came from several sources, when I was in the Forces, My Sergeant Major, got me interested in Fairbairn and Sykes, plus a few others like Captain Alan Costorphin Smith, and Captain Leather etc
These guys to me were pioneers, like Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and all the other much venerated Masters are to all those Martial artists out there.
I am, you might say a student of reality combat or Combatatives.
I'd actually heard of Krav Maga and it's original form Kapap while I was in the Middle East and I'd seen various demos of this and I was impressed by what I'd seen. It took me a long time to find a Krav class near to where I was living the reason being there are not many qualified instructors in the UK.
Yes your right again I too know of many people who have gotten through similiar situations without what we'd call training, but the people I know who have got through these situations still have techniques that they have developed not by training but actual on hands experience, or just constantly working them on a heavy bag, the notorious Dennis Jones is an example of this he actually trained in karate to a very high level and then binned it because it did not work for him, his reality being different to everyone elses. (You think where I live and work sounds like Iraq you want to talk to him! Again you would be shocked) and he worked about six workable easy techniques of his own which I can testify are very, very effective, Though I draw the line at using weapons on Civvys (no mater how much they might deserve it)
Again Sonshu, I think we'll just have to differ on our approach to multiples, I have actually seen freinds of mine die, because they were not causious or aggressive enough in dangerous situations or even in seemingly innocent situations that turned ugly in a split second, I am too experienced now and too cynical to give the bad guys the benefit of the doubt, I don't trust anyone with my life but me that and a healthy dose of fear with each conflict has got me through.
The end of May it's my birthday, I will be retiring from doorwork, minding, the whole kit and kaboodle, and to be honest my freind I can hardly wait.
Regards
Reel Deel

 

I have usually heard it more in the dictionary definition. However, most of my training is wrestling where you don't avoid a blow and informal stuff. When I boxed, my dad was my coach, they used counter as a reply to what they did. In TKD, we use counter as a reply.

Each style may use a slightly different meaning for common terms. Likewise, there may be some differences in how the word is used in England versus the states. That may be why the disagreement.

 

Hi Araki
Yes my freind I agree with most of you points here, the only way I differ is that I don't like to mess about with locks or breaks, these to me are weapons of oportunity if I can break a finger, a wrist, great but it would be by sheer luck. I would prefer to break a knee, break a nose, jaw, any target on the head really.
Positioning is again really important, placing yourself in the safest possible position from where you can strike but not be attacked or overwhelmed by the odds, sometimes as you say enviromental factor may interfere with this but by and large it works but only if as you say you can Isolate either the leader or the biggest meanest looking one there and go Norman Bates on him (only without the knife) Once big, loud and ugly goes down it is usual for the rest of them to back off very quickly.
Weapons. You are half right by what you say, you can use a weapon in self defence, ONLY if a weapon is pulled upon you.
You can use this weapon to disarm or take your attacker from the fight.
But you cannot,CANNOT! (this is for those who will moan about my appraoch)
Continue the attack with the weapon once your attacker is out of the picture.
I was told this by an instructor in Krav Maga who is in the Tactical patrol group and has been a serving police officer for many years.

I try not to go to ground with an attacker especially in a multiples situation you just asking for a party to break outwith your body being used as the dance floor, but accidents happen I once slipped on one of those hard plastic glasses on a beer soaked dance floor and virtually did a backward somersault at the speed I was travelling, what you reccomend with the biting gouging etc is correct.
I used to do Shorinji Kempo which also taught a lot of these methods long before I did Krav Maga, that's why I am stunned when a lot of other martial artist claim that these DEFENCE tactics are over the top?

 

Hmmm, then you must not read many posts here at all, not all of us have the luxury of time to **** about correcting grammar, spelling etc, especially when we are fully active members of this site and reply to or post a lot.
Does this mean that, you wouldn't read a posting by someone who for instance has dyslexia or a learning difficulty, or perhaps is from another country and has some difficulty with the English Language if so this makes you a very short-sighted, intolerant and impatient person, if you are a new learner in Martial arts you will not get very far with these negative attributes.
As for your answer to Tims post that at least is correct.

 

Ahhh Tim now I understand. Why you can't seem to grasp (no insult intended here) what I'm saying, now I understand that your a wrestler (much respect, I love wrestling) and I am sorry for the derogatory remarks I made in my earlier posts, and for the confusion.
Do you know what riding a punch is? Did you cover that in the boxing you did with your dad? Well you remember as you let the punch come in you moved your head and body into a position in order to take the sting out of the in coming punch while launching you own quick hard attack, done right you can knock your opponent out, that's counter-punching it's one of my favourite techniques (I was Navy Boxing Champion, and an Amatuer boxing campion too) I can usually knock someone out using this. I also use a system of Boxing called Crazy Monkey which I picked up off a Thai Boxing freind of mine, I combine this with a technique that a lot of old Skool doormen use, I don't know if it has a proper name me and a few of my mates call it body jamming, it should be an art all of it's own, then there is positioning yourself in a safe defendable area and moving around in such a way that you keep at least one attacker between yourself and any others, this is not as difficult as it sounds, especially if they are drunk drugged etc, you can use your surroundings and obstacles. I'm a bit knackered now, but I'll go into more detail when I post again, oh just to add an attack to me is initiated when the intended attacker moves in an aggressive way towards me, I can tell by his body language and demeanor if he is going to throw, then I go live. sorry mate my eyes are blurring I need to go to bed, I'm unwell at the moment.