Multiple opponents

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Shou Tu, Mar 4, 2004.

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  1. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    The link above for those that asked to see demo's of Shou' Shu'. there is alot and please think about the setting they are demo's and skits. when you go to a demo it is a controlled enviroment. They arent fight speed or power. although there is one where the attacker comes in to fast for the demo and gets knocked out from the Shifu's reaction to it.


  2. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Shifu Inkovia, Shifu Celeste(comical too), Shifu Krieger. there are some of forms too. Shifu Volpendesta does a broadsword form that Da' Shifu learned from Brandon Lei with Shou' Shu' motion applied to it.


  3. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    Thabks for answering the first part of my question.

    Are these techniques suposedly deadly or to vital points and if so, how do you training them? -heavy contact against fully resistant opponents?
  4. Shaolin Dragon

    Shaolin Dragon Born again martial artist

    In Shaolin Mok ka we train to fight multiple opponents in what seems to be a similar way to Shou Shu. Also, as a special treat for students foolish enough to come in on their birthday, they are challenged to survive for as long as they can against the entire class:D Nobody lasts long.

    The thing most people don't realise about fighting multiple opponents is that when there are more than five or six people, there is no way they can all attack you at once as things just get crowded and they get in each other's way. OK, if you beat one person it means there is another to take their place, but rather than fighting ten at a time you would still only be fighting five at any one time. Fitness is a major factor, and you have to try and keep your opponents in each other's way. Generally we don't train to fight this many people, as groups tend not to be that big, or if they are not all of them will be as willing to fight, but the principles remain the same: try to take out people as quickly as you can, as your fitness is likely to give out first; try not to get outflanked, try to keep just one fighter in front of you at a time, get a weapon if the opportunity presents itself, get out of their as soon as you can, and be prepared to get your ass kicked!

    The reality is that if you are outnumbered, the odds are stacked against you. I would not guarantee anybody could win a one-on-one fight, as even a total novice can get a lucky hit in. And if one of them has a weapon...
  5. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    the answer to your second question is this. if a strike to the throat crushes the wind pipe its a traffic jam no air in no air out. we train as though its for real with control (training). when in an actual fight we dont use Techs we use the principles and strikes and movement we are taught with in the material or Techs. if an opponent throws a right left combo im going to use what ever i can refering to strikes to disable him. if i have two opponents the first one gets the worst of it all. hoping to hinder the seconds thought on coming at me. Im not going to use an actual tech.

    take a look at the video link i posted.


  6. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    Excellent point about not more than a few being able to attack you at once.
    People think to mathematically about this and say 15 opponents is like fighting one person only 15 times tougher. Not so. A large group does not necessarily have the coordination and planning to deliver a constant barrage. Half of them are worried about getting hit by their friend, the other half are hitting their friends on accident (some of the time).
    Good advice on what to do though.
  7. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    I agree with that outlook as well.
  8. Shaolin Dragon

    Shaolin Dragon Born again martial artist

    As for the mathematics; I would say fighting two people is at least three times as hard as fighting one. Fighting three people is at least three times as hard as fighting two. But more than this and the difference in difficulty begins to get smaller for the reasons that have been outlined.

    Another thought - if a "gang" is attacking you, usually there is one particular instigator. If you take out the leader, perhaps this will lessen the gang's stomach for fighting, and they will ease off? Or could this possibly make them angrier, and so fight harder? What do others think?
  9. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    I've experienced both where the group or partner backs off or they get angrier and charge you. But for the most part they act like the dispute was just between you and the instigator when you whoop em.
  10. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Make the talker get the worst of it all. usually its a 50/50 on the not fighting or charging you in defense of their friend. but there is always a pause before they decide. If you can take out the talker before he gives what ever signal they are like ducks in a row. now they are off their game plan and on yours.

  11. Sphyerion

    Sphyerion Valued Member

  12. Sphyerion

    Sphyerion Valued Member

    In order to deal with multiple opponents, I work towards full mastery of my art. (swords) Essentially, i believe that if I truly understand the art, I can defeat anyone quickly and easily just the same as I defeat a novice. That is true mastery. So with this in mind, the method to defeat multiple opponents is to keep all directions in disarray. It's basically Musashi's method of dealing with multiple opponents. Even if they fully surround you, you charge at one side and break out of the circle first then turn around to deal with it. This same tactic is often used to deal with vice tactics in military tactics.

    How do I actually train? I seek to attain mastery. And I mentally prepare myself by thinking through countless scenarios. To me, mental preparation is everything.

    I hope this contributes to this thread.
  13. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    I'm curious Sphyerion, are you truly self taught? And if so how did you do it? How do you improve without instruction from a higher ranking practitioner?
  14. Sphyerion

    Sphyerion Valued Member

    indeed, I am truly self-taught. How? It's not exactly difficult. The reason I choose to teach myself is so that as I learn the art, I am *forced* to think through thoroughly every detail of my style. It's as though I were recreating the style on my own. This gives me a more indepth understanding of why I do what I do in my style. That, versus the average MA student, who follows a teacher unquestioningly and simply becoming an imitation of the teacher. An imitation is ineffective simply because he doesn't understand the reasons for why he does such and such. For example, a student can learn all the punches and kicks from a master. Imitate him perfectly, but if he doesnt' know when to use it, how to use it etc. He is useless. That is why I teach myself.
    ok, back to how I do it. Basically, I spend much of my time examining countless other styles (the reason I am on this forum). I look for the merits of each and every style, and at the same time note the flaws in the philosophies of the style. I did this since I was in Fifth grade (rather unconsciously and out of interest rather than intent) and I've only recently begun to seriously focus on MA. So, ok, once I find the merits and flaws of each style, I generalize it into a philosophy and redefine my own philosphy based on what I have discovered and learned. And in this manner, i continue to learn and perfect my art.

    how do I improve without a higher instructor? The world is my instructor. I learn from EVERYONE. Which is why I am EXTREMELY greatful for whoever it was that posted a link to a large collection of Shou Shu video clips. Many thanks to you.

    How I came to this path? Ever since I was a child, i've been rather independent. This independence has naturally had an effect on the way I do things. I have self-taught myself many programming languages etc. And much of what I do is self-taught.

    I hope that is enough. More questions? feel free to ask. (note, i still have a LONG way to go before I am good enough to enter real combat. Well hey, I am only 15 right now. i've got a life time ahead of me.)

    Edit: In case your'e curious: most of my style is a combination and heavy variation upon the basic principles of Tai Chi and Niten-Ichi-Ryu. =) I do differ from both of these style in many aspects though. I started to study MA seriously when I discovered the Book of Five Rings. Good book.

    Second Edit: It is important to note that learning from a teacher is not bad. It is entirely up to the student to not become an imitation, and to truly ponder why his teacher tells him to do whatever. A good student can achieve what I seek even with a teacher. I simply don't know of any Niten-Ichi-Ryu-Tai-Chi-Wu-Yi-Dao (Wu-yi-dao what I call my philosopphy) mixed style teachers. =)
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2004
  15. Smee

    Smee Evil kung fu genius

    :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
  16. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Sphyerion, i dont buy that one can self teach martial arts. Anyone can copy what they see from movies and read from books, but without knowledgeable instruction, and interaction with other students, how can you be so saw what you learning is correct/right. Stances, blocks, kicks and punches may look easy but it can take a long time for actual sudents to become proficient.

    I suggest to just join a ma class

    p.s. What does 'Wu-yi-dao' mean? Whats you philosopphy?
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2004
  17. Sphyerion

    Sphyerion Valued Member

    Well, first thing, I dont' copy anything. I study the pro and cons of what I see... and then decide how it best applies to me. And how am I sure that I am learning correctly? Well, i'm not. And that's the point. You have to remember that what is "correct" depends on who your'e talking to. Instead of having someone else tell me and dictate to me waht is correct, I discover what is correct. And I can figure out what is correct by sparring with other people and seeing where I am making mistakes...

    wu-yi-dao is just my personal philosophy that I decided to name.. LOL. What i was trying to explain is that it's impossible to find a teacher that teachers your personal style, because they are not the same as you. If i'm not mistaken JKD has a similar philosophy.
  18. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    I've got to say I was sceptical until this point.
    As long as you really break down the dynamics of the moves and do regular training with a partner(s) then I say good for you.
  19. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    You're mistaken.
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    LMAO Yoda! Short and sweet!

    Seriously though Syph, if you wish to teach yourself you must first learn from others. Just because you can beat someone in sparring does not mean you are getting better - it just means you can beat that person. If they are not of a high standard you will still end up with stylistic holes you can drive a bus through and will be in real trouble when you come up against someone who can really motor

    If you are happy with what you are doing then good luck to you - but you are missing out on so very much.If you are GOOD training on your own, you will be GREAT training with and learning from others.
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