Multiple opponents

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Shou Tu, Mar 4, 2004.

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  1. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    I suppose what's certain is that if you don't go in to something like that with the attitude of the Shou Shu boys, then you've probably already lost.
  2. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Well said:) there are to many arrogant people on this thread who are stupid enough to say they could take ten people out as if its a forgone conclusion.

    As Richie quite rightly said earlier "There is always ALWAYS someone bigger, harder and better than yourself"

    That said the shou sho guys are correct in assuming that when you fight against multiple opponents you should fight as if your life depended on it and if you dont believe you can beat ten opponents then you never will.
  3. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    Insofar as my training is concerned, it doesn't matter to me what you or anyone else thinks. But for the sake of constructive exchange between stylists I do participate in the forums and explain the best I can (with the knowledge I have at my level) the principles of Shou Shu that I am learning.
    Now as far as someone being bigger and harder. Think of a whip. In Shou Shu we learn to use our body with proper bone alignment and hip turns, reinforcing strikes from the soles of our feet the edge of our knuckles, to create a quick whip like attack that accelerates and explodes upon impact. The first time you see someone's head explode from a ram's head is like a martial arts orgasm.
    Shou Shu wasn't created for big football player jocks to beat up tiny Chinese guys. It's the other way around. Look at how big those folks from the east are, yet they'll throwdown hard using the same principles we apply in our training.
    It's the beauty of soft energy. Not just soft energy, but pulsating energy. For example, by closing our fist right upon impact we create a pulse that generates from the legs, through the hips, up the shoulders and into the arms accelerating 185 pound in my case right into your face. It's the principle of vicious animals....Have you ever seen a Tiger chase down an antelope on the discovery channel and put it in a figure four or a full nelson? Hell No! LOL. It decimates, destroys, lacerates, shreds and rips ragged flesh from bloodstained bone.
    Shou Shu is like a diamond. You come in as a pile of carbon- dirty, fragile, crumbling. Through years of training, the intense heat of practice, and the pressure of diligence you turn into the most solid substance known in the mineral world. But yes, even diamonds and be broken, but I'd take my chances as a diamond rather than a pile of carbon.
  4. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Ahhh.... but I've watched my cat do hold-downs on a baby rabbit, pinning it for a few seconds, then letting it go again so it can chase it and pin it. No ragged flesh or bloodstained bone, though I'm sure it's pretty scary for the rabbit. Sometimes it just lets it go without doing anything. Especially if I rattle a tin of cat food nearby.

    And my cat's pretty vicious...

    I should know. I trained it myself.

    In Miew-Jutsu. :D
  5. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    WOW Ghost Frog, I can't wait to start training in domesticated pussy style!
  6. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    I think you'd find it purr-fect. :D

    What's happening?!!I just can't stop myself today!!
  7. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Yes And bigs cats usually kill there prey by clamping their jaws around the preys neck and suffocating them (much more like a grapplers choke).

    Fair enough if its fighting another tiger it will be pretty vicious

    But now Iam splitting hairs :p
  8. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    LOL, that's punny!
  9. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    the original intent for this thread was not to check Shou Shu validity in its training.

    its intention was to find out how other styles trained for multiple opponents. But instead everyone jumps on the it cant be done band wagon.

    Andy Yoda if you want to lock this thread please do so before the machismo of the Flamers gets us riled up again. out of all the posts on this thread by non shou shu ist maybe 4 had actually gone with the topic.

    It was suppose to be a discussion not flaming.


  10. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    Good, practical explanation ..a little more palatable than speculating how many foes you can defeat. Personally, I'm intrigued.

    aka eating ;)
  11. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    My approach is in avoidance. Once it happens, fight like a bastid to escape.

    How does a Shou Shu believer defeat multiple opponents? What techniques are likely to be used and how do you train them?

    Sorry if I have more questions than answers but I don't live in a world where it is feasiblre to reliably beat up 10 people in SD except for escape before it happens.
  12. Richie

    Richie New Member

    I was stating fact not opinion. You and shifu tiger say "you dont care what ppl think" repeatedly through this thread but jump on ppl as soon as they disagree with your own opinion.... If you truely didnt care then you wouldnt defend it so aggresively e.g. the use of the wordf "cretin"

    This is not unique to Shou Shu. In fact this is the exact same way a punch is performed in Wing Chun - arm and fist relaxed until just before impact and then the fist is clenched. This allows far greater speed of attack than punch that has the arm and hand tense throughout.
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I think what we should all do is go to our own dojos or wherever we train and try out a few things with our colleagues. See what happens and do them in different ways. I remember in jiujistu 1 guy would stand in one end of the mat and each student would attack that person. That is more of a reaction training not multiple, because in a fight out in the streets/bar no one is gonna stand in line waiting for u to finish demolishing their mate.
    If we have our colleagues all work together, not only will you hopefully gain insight on what you might have to do, but also gain some insight on the attacker's view as well. Ask them what they might be feeling to do, etc...
    I have only trained in fighting a max of 3 opponents, which is very difficult because you WILL get hit no matter what. And the moves are all strike moves, with the exception of grabbing one guy and using him as a shield or hostage. i.e. pushing him into his gang to throw them off balance while u make ur escape, or hold him in a standing Rear Naked Choke, dig ur free fingers in his eyes and threaten "back off or he's blind!"

    Either that or just never try to start a fight with 8 people unless you have a :woo: or equal amount of mates to back you up.
    Has anyone been in a situation where they were robbed or anything like that? I have. Granted i was 14 at the time, but i still have been taught in disarming a knife attack, i could have broken his arm, twisted his elbow, shoulder throw him to the ground and twist the wrist, i could have done all the things i was taught in class. But the feeling of metal near your throat and the look of the blooshot eyes of a drug addict needing to rob a 14 year old boy out desparation...i froze. and this was with one guy. ONE! and here we are talking about how we can take on 8 people.

    You guys may call me a coward, I don't care.

    10 years later I'm still kicking myself about it, although at least i'm still alive and now I'm with my girlfriend who i plan to get engaged soon.
    I asked myself many times, in the future if i were to be robbed again, i would probably kick that guy's butt. But will i have my new wife next to me? or my young child? and will i be willing to risk their safety to use a move which i can say that i never used in a real situation? I dunno.
    I can safetly say now, i can go into a tournament and fight there because I spar a lot not because its 'safe', in sparring we hit each other for reals (with 8oz gloves) and grapple each other till the guy taps. But in class we dont have a real knife to try and poke each other (i dont know if Silat people do tho, i may be wrong).
    So all this leads to a thought....isn't the best way to train fighting 8 guys is to start a fight with 8 guys, constantly? Get sent to hospital, heal up and then do it again till youre the great Grand Master of Multiple-Opponent-do. All the while, not thinking about how our family is feeling because they might be worried about you getting hurt all the time.

    Please excuse the ranting and overly long post about my boring and probably useless tale of how i survived an assault with ONE opponent who is armed on a thread about MULTIPLE opponents.

    "Family first" - my Dad, retired MA Instructor
  14. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Mushroom nobody would call you a coward for your honest and down to earth opinion :)
  15. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    Well said (the whole post that is). Thanks for bringing some reality to the thread. I've been in one mass fight (multiple v multiple). I hit someone. No idea who, they were just there so I hit them. The I'm lucky that we were all young, beered up and naff fighters because ultimately, we all came out knackered, winded but comparatively unhurt. Reality is a nasty wake-up. I went into that thinking that I was an invincible Karateka who would demolish all comers. I came out a bit wiser, and more truthful with myself about the practicalities of fighting.
  16. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    Get a life
    This is not unique to Shou Shu. In fact this is the exact same way a punch is performed in Wing Chun - arm and fist relaxed until just before impact and then the fist is clenched. This allows far greater speed of attack than punch that has the arm and hand tense throughout.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, but they leave out hip turn. Did I say it was unique to shou shu. Nope. But go ahead and take things out of context to make it seem like you have a profound and original point. Cretin < Flashhback humor.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2004
  17. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    You have no reason to kick yourself maybe you 'could' have disarmed the guy but if by chance you made a mistake or simply werent able to do what you thought you could, you might not be here now. If you get out of a situation with someone holding a knife to your throat unscathed personally Id classify that as a pretty good outcome.
    While Im quite sure some people have survived ambushes 'in ancient times' I am equally certain that the amount of people who were killed in ambushes greatly outweighs them. Which is really the point, it is physically feasible that a person could beat 10 people but it is severely unlikely. Incidentally, I dont think ambushes in ancient times are anything similar to the ambushes that people are discussing here...

    And what about some replies to the Shou Shu enquiries? Theres been several non flaming posts asking legitimate questions... heres a chance to engage in worthwhile discussion!
  18. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    LOL@8 for getting knickers in a twist. Pitty that you haven't put a rational counter-arguenment to the two very valid and constructively put across points that you've just rubbished.
  19. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    It may interest you to know that this is not always the case and also the hip doesnt necessarily have to be turned to be involved in generating power.
  20. Guerilla Fists

    Guerilla Fists New Member

    LOL, I'm a pretty easy going guy.
    The first statement wasn't a point about anything.
    The second statement I didn't have to provide a counter argument for because I wasn't arguing. I didn't have to debate that pulsing was unique only to shou shu because it isn't. So there was no argument? So quick trying to fit the square block into the circular hole.
    I did point out that Wing Chun ignores hip turn and tries to overwhelm with a flurry of strikes. Though idealistic in thought it leaves out power. Unless they do something magical.
    If you need to laugh at someone, laugh at yourself for being a diminutive non contributory flamer on this thread. Now wait here while I go get my asbestos suit.

    CKava, all the Wing Chun fighters I have fought used very little hip turn if any. There may be other ways to generate power, ie small circles, leg support, but in shou shu we try to maxmize power by combining all these things at all times. Do you do Wing Chun? What was your experience like?
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2004
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