Please Reality posted... "Or if you prefer, post a video of yourself(or others) doing better." With all your negative criticism of people both in and outside the Bujinkan performing techniques why don't you post a video of yourself doing better? But of course that is never going to happen is it?
Oh Gary, you know I just threw that in there because that is always the fallback argument. You've watched Batman before, you know how anonymity works.:vanish: By your tone though, it sounds like you have a vendetta, not like you want to discuss the OP. Considering your background and training, one would think that you'd have something more useful to add, but no videos please. We've already seen your car scenario outside the ol' dojo routine. Meh. Seems like nobody has anything of value to discuss on the topic, oh well...
I skimmed through the original video post and there were things I liked. We teach some multiple attack scenarios as well and use similar concepts, for example, - using movement and footwork to try to keep the guys in a line rather than around me, i.e., try to keep an opponent between me and other opponents -immediately hitting the closest one as hard as possible and then either going after the other one(s) or making a break for it and running What I didn't care for in the video was it never seemed like any of the drill was shown with the 'bad guys' shifting or attacking or really anything. These are skills that can be practiced with sparring. I usually teach it first at slower speed with light contact so students get a feel for the movement and what options may open up and then we escalate the speed and contact (and add pads/protection) - it gets sloppy quickly! From my experience, once the multiple attacker stuff comes in (once de-escalation and avoidance fail), the motions become much grosser (and for me, the level of force escalates). You tend to use strikes/kicks, sprawls, and scrambles to get back up if you go down mostly. Having a couple guys (especially in pads) coming at you really helps you train this stuff, in my opinion.
Given your training, how many people do you think you could deal with? Forget scenarios, forget weapons, just how many people in a nightclub trying to tear you a new backside could you deal with? Your training with the best (apparently), so no smoke and mirrors, just a one word answer will do. We'll build from there?
I'll regret asking but... Who in your opinion is qualified to add anything of value to this discussion? woulds you like people from other styles to comment on how they handle it? or would you like fellow ninjutsu practitioners to talk about it? and when they do talk about it will you eventually crap all over their training by going through the flaws in their videos (which is fair game when one posts a video) but blame them/ shoot them down for not training in japan as the reason for their perceived lack of skill? i often find discussions where you get involved very confusing in terms of how to progress them as i see you shoot many people down with your claimed authority of knowing what the style truly is. it also confuses me further as to why you start threads then. i dont mean to get on at you but im really not sure what you want out of this thread? do you want a cross style discussion or a discussion with other practitioners of your style?
In term of the video in the opening post I really dislike the thought of stepping between two opponents. The technique being show assumed one strike is going to disable one attacker, which is foolhardy at best. Those of us who have done two onto one know just how hard it is not to step between opponents, but I'd never teach it.
Interesting question... Of course it would depend on the circumstances, whether I was aware that the situation was going South or preempting, or whether I was distracted by my drink and the music(not to mention the decor of the place) and getting setup in a trap. The next thing would be their skill level or experience pounding guys. In general, the military guys I've encountered in Japan are headhunters and full of bravado and moxie until the MPs start coming. The Aussies and Brits can get rowdy but are usually pretty to figure out when they're about to blow their top. Most Japanese don't fight but the ones that do usually know something but are easy to spot by their ears and knuckles(and dress code). I've dealt with four but had backup nearby who got involved soon after, but part of that was youth and taking control of the situation before they were ready to go. I am not Superman and don't do security anymore, so I'd prefer to enjoy my Guinness in peace. In general, I'd say two or three at the most, but again it totally would depend on the situation, how threatened I felt, and whether I thought it was worth the potential fallout(legally, retribution wise, possibility of weapons, real vs perceived danger). I'd probably be more likely to offer to buy a drink or leave than get involved these days. If I felt threatened and believed I was really in danger, I wouldn't really care how many I could take on, I'd be doing my darnedest to get out of there and would do whatever I felt necessary to do so. I've been in some melee situations before, but it wasn't like some movie where they were all aiming for me. If that was the case, tactically and expediently egressing while trying to dissuade anyone from either trying to block my way or follow would be the goal. Yes, besides the kata where you strike two guys on either side in the neck, throw blinding powder or projectiles, and roll between them, that route is pretty rare. The things I have learned were to move out from between them while trying to take one guy out and corral them, not try to escape by splitting them. Of the 7 techniques he showed, some of them I was seeing for the first time and he didn't demonstrate most of what I've learned here.
Well, both Thomas and Simon have chimed in with pertinent and intelligent posts. This isn't a ninjutsu rocks other arts suck thread, and anyone should feel free to contribute. It was specifically about multiple attackers as trained in ninjutsu(hence the OP and posting it in this forum), but that doesn't really matter. However, off topic attacks and trolling is never constructive. Fun perhaps, but this forum is still being closely monitored so why take your chances on a ban just so you can poke fun at ninjutsu or poor ol' blue meanie RP?:love: PM is just as simple.
It is, so if you think someone is trolling, you should PM or a member of the MOD team. It works both ways. So are you saying you could handle two, three, or four people? Backside to the wall against a group of two or more who will fight back hard.
See, now you've made a scenario. So you're back is already against the wall and they are already in my face? I am telling you I once got 4 people to rethink their aggressive behaviour, but again I had backup, was young, and luck and circumstances aided greatly in that situation. That was also work, I wouldn't necessarily get involved otherwise. I told you two, three at most but gave you some of the reasons behind the answer. In my mind there is also a difference between trying to handle some guys in a bar and trying to extricate yourself from a dangerous situation. One is social violence(fighting), and the other is self defense. I don't frequent places where this is an issue anymore these days, I prefer a quiet bar with a more mature clientele. Though I might be tempted to participate in fighting, there isn't much payoff for that kind of behaviour anymore. Again though, it's not easy to answer your question because it is very hypothetical(how big are they, on the wrestling team or tennis team, been drinking or partying hard, what instigated the situation). Considering my training and experience, I shouldn't be in a situation where my back is to the wall and two or more guys are ready to pound my face in(unless it's on MAP). So the new scenario you've created is different. Why am I alone with those guys upset, why did attempting to diffuse the situation fall short, etc?
Because you are avoiding giving a straight answer, as you know you'll get called on it. You started a thread on Ninjutsu and multiple opponents, and I want to know how effective it is, given that you are training at an elite level (apparently).
Go figure. I gave you a straight answer, two times now. So not sure what more you are looking for.:dunno: At first you said no scenario, no weapons, what do you think, and I told you what I thought. Then you tried to change it to a different scenario. Again, not sure what you are trying to fish for, you've gotten your response and the thinking behind it.:hat:
I don't think you did, so I'll try again. You claim to be training with those who are at the pinnacle of the art. Given that you posted a video and started a thread on Ninjutsu and multiple opponents, I want to know how good it is outside of the dojo. No get set, no warning, no smoke and mirrors, how good is it? If I want to learn to defend myself I'll not be Systema, so should I pack my bags, come and train with you are your coaches, or am I wasting my time? If I see an advert saying, "defend yourself against multiple attackers", I'm suspicious to say the least. Backside against the wall, how good is it?
I posted a video not claiming it was representative of what we learn, but as an example of what is taught in some schools. Then I posted a demo from a tv show. As far as what I have learned, I think some of it is comparable to what I have seen taught in the protection industry, self defense, reality based cqc, and other arts. Some of the things I've been shown I have not seen elsewhere, but I think there is a lack of emphasis on the non physical side of training. From a pure technical standpoint though, I think it would be worth learning(again with the caveat that you learn from someone experienced beyond the theoretical and compliant and that you train to be effective in it). Again though, most of what we learn isn't for duking it out in the bar(though it could be applied in that way), it is more about damaging the other guy in order to get away. The training ideal behind some of the ryu like Kukishin is more of a receiving and then counterattacking, but when it comes to multiple attackers, Koto ryu(or Togakure to a lesser extent) is more applicable. I'd also posit that if you are in a situation and a group of people has the jump on you, you are in deep trouble no matter what you train in. If you can't take a punch or are not prepared mentally to deal with an attack, that is the end of the conversation. A large part of training and experience is avoiding being in such a situation in the first place, but if you are, there are aspects of these arts that can be very useful.
Regarding the video in the original post, I don't know what to think about the guy talking about being a "twirling sufi" or whatever he was saying. He turns his back to his opponents constantly, and seems to waste a lot of motion by attacking across his body such that he has to turn in order to strike, which results in him exposing his entire side to the other opponent. Maybe it works for him, but I'm not a twirling type of guy. I have used Bujinkan stuff in heavy sparring vs two opponents, and the stuff that worked best for me was the very basic, direct method of punching and kicking that is typically used in learning or demonstrating techniques in the Bujinkan. It was kind of like back up, circle, circle, make them chase me, and then when the positioning was good, flow from circling into straight linear attacks to the closest one and bore through or pass him by moving forward with straight punches combined with low kicks, all in very rapid succession. This most often resulted in them getting knocked away or down. (Or sometimes resulted in me getting tackled. Can't win them all.) Then disengage from them (as the other opponent invariably is closing rapidly on me at this point) and repeat the whole maneuvering process again because the first guy is recovering or getting up and I want him to be in the other guy's way as he does so. Of course, that would be the prime time to run but in practice, we just kept going until we were all too tired to continue, or somebody had "won". (A "win" was when someone was in pain and didn't want to continue, or when the lone defender got wrestled down and held down.) Anyway, I guess my point is that the strikes and kicks in Bujinkan were really effective for that sort of "passing through" kind of attacking. The full-bodied movement really generates a lot of power and you don't have to plant yourself to hit really hard. The kicks aren't real powerful (with certain exceptions) because you have to get your foot back to the ground quickly as you move, but they are really good for jamming up front knees, generally unbalancing someone, or groin attacks. Of course punches and kicks morph into knees and elbows as one closes. Anyway, that's my experience as a green belt trying stuff out against my kung-fu, tkd, and jjj practicing friends. Used this stuff in a real fight one time and managed to bloody one of my opponents pretty good before several people jumped in and separated us.
Scared? Three on one? Twenty seven points of contact verses technically seven (if you count shoulders on the fellow with his hands tied behind his back), are you kidding? I realize the nature of combat changes depending on numbers, but they were doing nothing to the guy, they were holding him and made no move to subdue him even after he'd shaken one of them off, it's not a matter of attacking effectively, it's a matter of attacking with any conviction at all.
I know that the kuki dtj kata have a lot of repetitive uke waza In, , but is that for extra practise until there is a gap for the entry, or does It encourage long drawn out enguagments?
Quite serious, they know what he can do. Training device, can be found in bojutsu kata as well. It is the parts of the kata in between the strikes and blocks that matter. There is a learning progression involved but also the theory is you do that and end it, but if it doesn't work you do this to end it and so on. The kata become more and more simple as you go through the levels as well. The first set of sabaki gata are just the tip of the iceberg and don't look anything like the Quest videos once you get beyond their basic memorisation.
