Multiple opponents in ninjutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    This came up in another thread and I mentioned that it is something that one should learn in their learning progression in the ryu, being a big part of Kukishin weapons curriculum and found in Togakure ryu, etc. The idea of multiple attackers often has some concept of being captured involved, held down or against a wall or trapped in between several attackers. A few concepts are very important, such as maintaining awareness and mobility, using the opponents as a shield, and preemption. Another important point is distance. If you have two attackers, you in general don't want to maintain the same distance or go between them as you escape(there is an exception in techniques where you strike both simultaneously and roll between them). Here are some Akban examples of multiple attacker scenarios, some aspects are similar to what I have learned, while some are very different, but food for thought.

    [ame=""]7 drills against multiple opponents, Hamburg seminar with Yossi Sheriff - YouTube[/ame]

    A lot of the Akban techniques are quasi ninjutsu, quasi MMA or Krav Maga or whatever, so there is often a reliance on conventional strikes(reverse punch) and normal range/height/posturing. The application is also a bit choppy and stiff, not like one would expect from a ninjutsu practitioner. The teacher often talks about the loss of the language of ninjutsu but then goes on to demonstrate something that lacks such vocabulary.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I thought that the Takamatsuden had Reverse punch's? A reverse punch is just a punch from the rear hand, not sure why that would be anathema to the Takamatsuden? Its just so natural. On the dvd i have at home, you can see rear hand strikes done in various kata.

    However watching them, the look like they are doing some kind of mma hybrid. With modern striking and ninjutsu inspired grappling.

    Ill admit that i think it would be fun to try one of their 24hour sparring marathons.
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Nobody said there weren't.
  4. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    That was your 4,444th post!
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Well your usage of the terms conventional strikes would suggest otherwise.
  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Well next time two people attack me by standing absolutely still I know exactly what to do :D
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I could see how my comment could be misinterpreted to say that but I was very specific in my wording for a reason. I never said there weren't reverse punches(nor jabs, hooks, uppercuts, chops, or strikes from odd and unconventional angles either), but they are not the automatic go to technique, especially in this kind of situation.

    A reverse punch or cross is a power punch, in a multiple attacker situation where you are standing nearby two opponents but nothing has happened yet, you do not realistically have time to load up with two power shots at that range. The footwork keeps you in harms way the entire time, the second guy will probably react to either move in or change position, and the off hand is not doing anything to protect you in the meanwhile. In the video demo, he doesn't do any covering until he is out of the trap and has range, which is odd. If one knows anything about ninjutsu, we tend to strike with the nearest hand first, so you would expect a same arm same leg attack which is closer and harder to see(think juntsuki).

    If a guy is close by your side, a reverse punch with the arm furthest from him would make sense as it is harder to see and can be started with a foot movement from the outer foot, concealing your movement. His demo though was to a diagonal and frontal opponent, so again quite different.
  8. gtlaau

    gtlaau Valued Member

    Hahahahaha Brilliant!!!
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Leaving for work. Thanks for your response. Ya i was a bit dense last night and it didnt dawn on me that the above was what you were referring to. Striking with the nearest tools is what im taught as well. So its on me for not catching it last night.

    Ill say this, in my previous training, i as taught that never lead with a cross as it leaves me open.
  10. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    There are plenty of ideas for dealing with multiple opponents built into the systems if you only know what to look for. The approach to positional stances, keeping a straight back, spreading the legs for mobility and distance control are just some parts which are useful. My teachers has also quite often reminded me not to stay too focused on the person in front of me. We have also done different drills where you get in the middle of a circle of attackers who attack randomely from different directions.

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    [ame=""]Nagato Sensei Fight with their hands tied - YouTube[/ame]

  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey PR, is that some kind of secret Ninja knot used to tie up the wrists? Didn't look like how to really tie up someone with a rope.

    Of course I only learned how to tie people up for Go Ju. As if 50... as in 50 shades of grey. :evil:

    Disclaimer: The knot didn't make a difference in the video, since the techniques all used the legs and other parts of the body for striking and not the hands.
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    this is how you train multiple opponents? love how the guys just fall down when they're "kicked".
  14. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    And how inept they are at controlling someone who has their hands restrained.
  15. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    You just don't understand the effectiveness of Nagato's techniques because you haven't moved to Japan and drank freely of the Kool-Aid. Unless you are well acquainted with the taste of Kool-Aid you are not qualified to comment.
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oh boy, really.:rolleyes: Someone pointed out that we have different drills for practicing this concept and I posted a demo for a tv show and the usual suspects chime in with very intelligent and useful conversation points.
  17. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you post ridiculous nonsense videos then are always surprised that people call you out on them?

    here's how you do it. tell me how ilias iliadis CAN'T fight. i'd love to hear the machinations around that one.

    compare the above video of two masters going at it against the two videos you posted on this thread: one guy just standing around, the other video of a guy play acting.

    seriously, you might as well have posted video from the 'five elements ninjas'. oh wait...

    [ame=""]Five Elements Ninjas 五éå¿è¡“ - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    How about you point out what you found ridiculous about the tv demo and post something constructive? Or if you prefer, post a video of yourself(or others) doing better. Let me be more precise, how about you post something related to the OP, which is multiple opponent training in ninjutsu. Not posting off topic videos or trolling to get a rise.

    Nobody said it was a picture perfect example of a multiple opponent situation, however you could see the principle of trying to maneuver the opponents into a v, giving yourself some distance as well as somewhat preemptive striking.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  19. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Why are they attacking him so slowly? Why are they not trying to strike his unprotected face? Why are they not attacking in concert? Why are they just waiting for him to do something when they are holding him and not looking to improve position?
  20. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You'd have to ask them but probably partly because it was a demo and partly because they were scared. Attacking in unison is the other side of the coin when it comes to multiple opponents training, people have to train(either in practice or experience) in order to attack effectively in a group less they get in each others way or hit their friends.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015

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