muay thai - silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kertas, May 20, 2006.

  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    While I've not got shins 'o' steel :p I've always questioned the sort of conditioning that require people to hit bricks/tree/cement/steel etc.

    In MT we achieve conditioning by use of the heavy bag and the thai pads. Both of which are soft by comparison to any of the things I've listed above.
    If my understanding is correct the conditioning benefit from the heavy bag/thai pads comes from bone ossification - that is growth and improvement in bone density - due to repeated impact on the heavy bags. According to what I've read about ossification - it happens from the inside out.. so that bone becomes stronger by adding new bone material from the inside of the bone not from the outside.

    Even when shins are conditioned from much time on the heavy bags/thai pads it doesn't mean they're indestructable and it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to check an incoming kick. It does and will always hurt... usually what people are seeing when someone checks a full blown kick is not conditioning a fighter that is immune to pain... but a fighter that knows how to keep a poker face in a fight to put the other fighter off his game... the fighter checking the kick will still feel pain... even if he's got the increased pain threshold that fighters have. Getting out of the way through good footwork is always the first option in a fight and decent trainer will tell you this.

    It's interesting because we don't do forearm conditioning per se in Muay Thai... yet when we hold the Thai pads for someone that's kicking... we are essentially absorbing much of that impact with the forearms. So I'd imagine there is some conditioning that takes place. If a kicker is a strong kicker I often end up with bruises on the forearm even when holding the Thai pads.
    It's not impossible to break someones forearms with a good solid roundhouse kick - as was shown in the 2005 Kings Cup in Thailand when a French fighter had no choice but to check his Thai opponents kick with his forearms and resulted in a broken forearm.

    For a bit there when we got different weather systems moving through I'd always be able to tell in advance... much like how old people do... it was because my shins would tell me. I'd had a rough year in the fights so my shins had checked a fair number of kicks..... but couldn't really be avoided - and so I focussed on a better massage/diet regimen and back to the heavy bag/Thai pads and it doesn't seem to happen anymore. But I think if you don' stay on top of it with rehabbing it... like any trauma it will effect you as you get older with more regularity.

    In terms of steel shot.. it's interesting in the bags of shot that I've seen they've got a fair bit of give in them... so maybe it's not all that disimilar from hitting a heavy bag or Thai pads.

    From both Boxing and Muay Thai we spend a huge amount of time punching so if anything I'd expect to see problems in my hands... but since we wrap properly and take care of them properly (massage etc.) I've never seen problems in my hands/wrists/shoulders from the Boxing and the Muay Thai.

    Anyhow - that was my long winded 2 cents. :D
  2. sulaiman

    sulaiman Valued Member

    From both Boxing and Muay Thai we spend a huge amount of time punching so if anything I'd expect to see problems in my hands... but since we wrap properly and take care of them properly (massage etc.) I've never seen problems in my hands/wrists/shoulders from the Boxing and the Muay Thai.

    So STJ , thai boxers like soft hands too ... :D
  3. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    Forearm conditioning in boxing happens while training, doesn't it? If your guard is up, you're getting punched plenty in the arms. I say, that's good conditioning. Am I way off base or what?
    My friend Terry Henderson (Boxer) never lost a dead-arm contest, not that I ever saw. He could take terrible blows, laugh, and come back harder.

    As far as my conditioning goes, it's nothing compared to what Rudy Terlinden went through as a youth. They practically BATHED in DitDaJao after training. What my teacher has us doing now is what Rudy advocated later. "You're hitting flesh and bone, not wood or stone. You just need to be harder than the guy you're hitting, that's all."
    Just an aside, I read in another forum from some eskrima guys that met Rudy, they were talking about his conditioning and were hitting him full power with sticks, and he just blocked everything with his forearms. Now, that's HARD.
    Plus, a few minutes a day of conditioning like this, for the first year, is pretty much what is called for by my teacher. After that, it's just maintaining that level, which is easy.
    Ray blocks and strikes with his forearms and anything below the contact point just goes numb. That, and his palm blocks and chopping block just plain burn. I hate that feeling, but he says that to be taken seriously, you have to do it. Especially in Pukulan Kemajoran, our other art.
    When I look at this type of thing, this is what seems to enable silat fighters to be able to handle multiple opponents. Being able to simply execute a strong block that basically stuns the guy... reminds me of the strong blocks from Shorin Ryu, or Naha-te. Just destructive. You telegraph at all on these guys, & it's curtains.

    PS: That, and superior footwork (Lanka Tiga/Empat, Jurus, etc)
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  4. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    There are some incredible strikers that never crippled themselves. Even Mas Oyama had medical examinations many years apart, both stated that he suffered no debilitating effects from his conditioning. Just follow the rules, and get over the idea that you need to break things to make them stronger. Breaking the knuckles is crap, especially for me. I do Jujutsu too, and you can't grapple effectively with limited ROM in your hands.

    One of the main things we do to condition our forearms, besides banging them with the next guy of course, is slapping them. We do all kinds of hand conditioning, chops, punches, palms/palm heels, and them we slap and strike our own arms. It would stand to reason that as your hands get more conditioned, so will your forearms if you keep up the intensity.
    Just a thought. :)
  5. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Yeah, this was pretty much the lines I was thinking of. I just wondered if there had been any problems with bone conditioning.

    Belting hell out of your forearms against someone elses or whatever, basically increases the thickness of the 'bone sheath', so this would do little other than to thicken & strengthen the bone. As we are generally battering the bony areas of the forearm I can't really see much of a problem there. :)

    Agreed, a sickening bony thwack is much more than a block ;)
  6. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    My teacher has no problems that I can discern. Knowing your limits is the main thing. Just like weight lifting. You must tear the muscles to build them, but you don't want a sprain/strain. Just tear at a very finite, cellular fiber level, so they grow bigger.
    Same with the bones. Stress them, don't break them.
  7. Taker

    Taker Valued Member

    Silat Cekak Hanafi

    Salam there!

    As far as I had been with many friends who had been first hand or second hand witnessess to the art of muay thai, or commonly known in Malaysia as "Tomoi Siam", yes it was a very good art. What makes it a deadly art to many eyes is not just the techniques, but the rigorous training they had to endure, such as kicking banana tree trunk 1000 times a day, to make it to the finish line of the art.

    So in order to answer your question, I had never actually fought a muay thai fighter first hand but I would love to share some stories I heard about them from my silat style, Silat Cekak Hanafi.

    Hope I had enlighten you with this story. I will try to get more info on the matter next time. Salam.
  8. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Oh Pleeese! learn something about muay thai(real muay thai) and its instructors :)
  9. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat


    Muay Thai vs Silat and the Silat exponent getting beat up against the fence? I was wondering if you could please tell me in which UFC this took place?

    I have watched/own 1 - 20 and never seen this. I did see in UFC 2 in the Exotic Arts Demonstration a Silat exponent demonstrate and when I inquired about him I was told he lost in the preliminary against Remco Pardoel the Netherlands Judo/Jujitsu champion but I have yet to see it on video.

    I would like to see one of these fights if possible, does anyone have one have this fight on video or no where to get it?

    Eddie Ivester
  10. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    I'd like to see this too.
  11. Taker

    Taker Valued Member

    A great place to see Muay Thai or "Tomoi Siam" as it's known here in Malaysia is at the state of Kedah. As the state is bordering Thailand , the art of Muay Thai has been influencing the interest of keen martial artists here, as well as Silat Gayung Fatani that originated from the Malay occupied state of Pattani in Southern Thailand.

    In many rural areas, deep in the villages, far from big cities, Muay Thai has been a very popular art for the masses, some even changed the name to Silat Tomoi, or Silat Muay Thai, but the techniques didn't really differ that much.

    So to really see Muay Thai vs. Silat, or interested in interviewing those who had first hand experiences, I welcome you to Kedah, Malaysia! :Angel:

  12. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat


    This is from my message board at


    I understand your concerns. A true Muay Thai practitioner is very tuff individual indeed.

    The stuff outside the ring can be Thai Silat so I'm going to stay with components that are used in the ring but could be applied outside.

    What Joel said has a lot of validation and I call it Fighting Spirit:

    Balls/Bravery = To face an attacker that's meaner & bigger

    Guts/Nerve = To actually stand and fight with that attacker

    Heart/Courage = To keep fighting even when hurt and losing

    Mind/Valor = The determination to do what ever it takes to stay alive & neutralize the attacker.

    Most typical Muay Thai fighters can be gotten by a few things like outflanking skills, dropping low and attacking them below the knees.

    Some I like to do is a leg trap or foot sector, also with out hand wraps it opens them up to hand destructions and another good one is attacking the feet, especially if they're barefooted.

    So while they seem indestructible they aren't and like I have told many Thai practitioners if I thought it beat Silat I would still be doing it!

    Teacher: Ivester
  13. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Muay thai boran shares more similaritys with some styles(especially the training mentalitys)of silat than it does differences imho,the ring art of muay thai is awesum,the boxers are fit, strong, conditioned and skilled,of course they can be beat they beat each other all the time! you wont find a top nak muay without a loss on their record,why? because the competition is so high,they fight for a living not learn for recriation,life protection etc,but they are some of the most humble people ive ever met,they would not be interested in a silat style vs muay thai style debate unless they were guna be paid! then they would fight king kong! :)
  14. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat

    Yes it does. Muay Thai Boran depending on where it's from is/can be Silat and/or Silatish. I believe the Southern Chaiya is very close to Silat and Boran & Silat had to have come from the same parent system. I have heard both sides; Silat came from the Chupasart and that Boran came from Silat, either way they're both good and I don't care what came from where. I love both!!

    I have to disagree with this as it pertains to the Southern Thailand and Malaysian border anyway. There are many stories of Thais vs Malays and there are Thai styles developed to beat "Silat" Malay styles and Silat styles developed to beat "Boran" Thai styles.

    Both are competitive people and love a good contest, not to mention the whole my country/my style proud stuff.

    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
  15. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    ICT,guess i was thinking about the nak muay who box in bangkok and the ones i personally know when i wrote that,i know nothing about the malaysia vs thai fights,however i do mean the nak muay that box proffesionally wouldnt be interested unless getting paid,otherwise why jepodise a pay day for nothing if you see what i mean :)
  16. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat

    Fire Cobra,

    Yea your probably right. The sports guys would want a payday to fight just like no Western Pro Boxer would enter the UFC for those table scraps they give out.

    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
  17. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Agreed ICT,fighters should be paid more in the UFC for sure,it can be health damaging! :)
  18. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    Ours has little to no give. It's for developing conditioning AND LATER PENETRATION. I had a friend that tried to hit it, outweighs me by at least 50lbs, the bag moved a few inches, and he ran away holding his hand. It's very heavy. You can dent it after training with it for awhile, but it will not flex.
  19. red_bry

    red_bry New Member

    if any of you seen TPI fighting championship (indonesian mma event), there are a lot of silat practitioners who compete. One name i remember was Aji Susilo. He also fought in PRIDE THE BEST againts a chinese mma fighter.

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