muay thai - silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kertas, May 20, 2006.

  1. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Guys, why don't we all calm down and take a back seat on this. MAP has a good history of healthy debating, but when things get personal, it takes away from the learning and the fun of logging onto the site.

    There are plenty of other forums where people slag each other off, and we should keep this one free from such nonsense.

    Let's draw the line with what has been said by all, and move on.

    Come on Rodney, you know it makes sense... cushti :p
  2. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    closed pending investigation
  3. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    Gentlemen, please post in this thread with a little more maturity. It is a good thread, with good discussion.

    Kiai Carita has been Temp Banned for 3 days for personal attacks and repeated profanity.

    I will leave his post there as a reminder for everyone else how NOT to respond to questions/posts.

    I do NOT want to see his post quoted in further posts to this thread.

    Thread re-opened.
  4. sulaiman

    sulaiman Valued Member

    Hi Nigel,
    Nice to see you posting.
    To resume this thread ( after such dramatic episodes -MOD , Did it not take 2 to tango, I thought Bram was quite restrained after the insults flung at him by our resident silat fan stj !)

  5. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    Hi Sulaiman,
    My main point is, I guess, that the silat wolrd here in Malaysia is full of stories about how deadly the art is, how my teacher killed Bruce Lee, Hang Tuah lives just up the road and I learned from a deadly Bomoh etc. But that in my limited experience and in that of those senior exponents I know here on Penang Island there is no substantiation for stories of silat exponents beating Thai boxers.
    As you know Penang is even more of a cultural melting pot than the rest of Malaysia and the local martial arts reflect that. There is and has been a great deal of interraction between the different races and martial arts groups so stylistic "comparisons" are nothing new here.
    As to hard silat training I am not qualified to speak. In the styles that I have practised, Lian Padukan, Silat Melayu Lok Sembilan, Silat Embo and Silat Tua, the training has sometimes been rigorous but nothing like as hard as training in a Thai boxing camp. I must stress that I have not experienced the latter (I'm far too corpulent and lazy for that!) but my teacher and seniors have.
    Once again I must point out that I practise silat and for me it is the culmination of all the arts I have trained in and learnt; but I endeavour to be as realistic and honest in my approach to training as possible. What I most value about silat is that it is an art of survival, an art of life and encompasses the physical, mental and spiritual. You talk of using weapons, well in Silat Tua, if our kampong were to be threatened by another which was full of deadly martial artists then we would try to make friends with them and if that failed we would poison their water supply! And yes we learn poisons as a part of the more advanced syllabus. The Silat Tua we practise comes from Pattani, now a part of Thailand but for hundreds of years an independent Malay Kingdom which was perennially at war with Thailand, so there is some degree of focus in the art on fighting Thais. With that being said my teacher, who is one of only four to graduate from his teacher's system still holds that in his experience he has not met a Malaysian silat exponent who can beat a person trained in Thai boxing in an unarmed fight. He is also quite open to anyone visiting him to discuss these things (in a friendly manner) and also open to physically demonstrating his point of view.
    As to batin, breathing practices etc, in my personal experience of Guru Zainal's family White Tiger system of classic Muay Thai there are several sets of breathing exercises, a full system of meditation and what might be termed visualisation, and various other esoteric practices. Weapons taught include the Thai swords, staff, bamboo shield (krabong) and the knife.
    Anyway sorry for the rambling post. If anyone wishes to contact me concerning training in Penang they may do so through the Zhong Ding website.
    Best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
  6. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    What a foolish thread ...

    This is indeed a foolish thread.

    This is where this thread should have stopped :rolleyes: .
    Where is Orang Jawa when we need him? My friend, I hope that all is well in your life! All my best wishes in your direction!

    I do think though that there is a predisposition for Sgt_Major to zero in on KC ... that's just my opinion of course, but maybe there are some loyalties showing here just as I too am showing my loyalties ... so ndak apalah, not a problem :) .

    At this point I will advise that this is a silat forum ... if a person has a question about silat, they will get better mileage if the question is also respecful of silat. I have observed some of the language on recent threads, and it appears to me that the language is sometimes of a trolling nature.

    To my silat friends, the stalwarts of this forum, please be troll aware and do not respond. Such threads do not deserve a response of any sort.

    Salam hormat,
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

  8. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    Being called upon to provide evidence to support claims does not equal personal attacks.

    The issue is still under investigation, and I can assure you there was no personal loyalties involved in temp banning Kiai, his behaviour ensured it was being done.
  9. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    I must say, in my style of Pentjak Silat (Ratu Adil) we don't like to keep our hands soft. I elbow/punch/chop/palm a speedbag full of steel bearings, I beat the shiznit out of my forearms, and I would assume that my shin and foot conditioning is at least close to as intense as the average Muay Thai student. Of course, I apply teh Jao liberally :rolleyes:
    I wouldn't say that Silat folks like to stay sensitive and not "soft".
    Just my take.
  10. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Doc Jude,could you tell me the reasons you do that type of conditioning? :)
  11. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    Uh, I don't understand the question. Why condition my hands/arms/elbows/legs/feet?
    So I don't hurt them when I'm wailing on someone. That's the first answer that comes to mind.
    Why do YOU think that someone would condition their limbs if they are involve in fighting arts?
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    in light of that... I'm curious... how often do you actually fight someone?
  13. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    In my adult life, usually once a year or so.
    Bad luck, I guess.
    Mostly I condition because it hurts when Ray bangs his shins/forearms against mine and he laughs when I complain. That's what makes me condition. That, and he gave me a speedbag full of steel shot & showed me how to hit it, so that's what I do. I also found out how much he paid for all that steel shot, and the time he spent putting the damn thing together. I'd be a real jerk not to use it.

    PS: Pre-apology for the Thread Drift. :D
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I can't argue with that. :D
  15. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Why does Ray do that type of conditioning Doc Jude? :)
  16. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    Why? Because it's silat. He grew up in Java, learning Silat. It's what he did as a student and he passed it on to us.
    I thought that would have been rather obvious.

  17. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Loathe to get into a conditioning vs non debate but to add a personal aside.........

    I was training in Java only last week with a teacher with heavily conditioned forearms & shins. It was almost sickening to make contact with these with my rather chunky European limbs.

    I don't know with what, or how he conditioned his arms and legs :confused: .

    I do know he did this because his teacher(his father) told him it was expected.

    I do know those forearm blocks jarred me almost to the spine.

    With full speed & power, I have no doubt they could quite easily fracture a skull or break a jaw(& before anyone pipes up, I've had two of the former & one of the later :rolleyes: ).

    So I pretty much think this, yes sensitivity if you are fast enough.

    However, 30 years or more of battering the beJaysus out of your forearms....c'mon you've really got some cudgels, & you're probably not even going to feel a parry of someones best shot.

    Well, that's my mere murid take on it :Angel:
    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  18. Monyet Nakal

    Monyet Nakal Valued Member

    Its tricky. I believe *some* conditioning is very beneficial if not a must for any martial artist, however I have seen what really heavy conditioning can possibly do to a person later on in life and I personally would rather stick with a moderate amount than pay for it later.
  19. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Pretty much agree on that. Would hardly want an 'ouch my forearms' scenario, but I must say I have no idea what future problems heavily calcified forearms or shins present.

    Tendons, ligaments & soft tissue in general would present predictable future problems, but lumpy calcified bones....must admit I haven't a clue how this would cause problems.

    Perhaps some ancient MAist with shins 'o' steel can help out here :)
    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  20. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Not all silat systems or practitioners condition their bodies in that way,im not saying its bad,just wondering the point when most people will never have to use the conditioning gained,personally i would rather put the time spent conditioning into other areas such as posture,breath etc. :)

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