Muay Thai Grading/Certification

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by SCP_Kensei, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    It's pretty well accepted by most people I have discussed Muay Thai with that grading in muay thai is an unnecessary luxury used by westerners to boost their own egos and by gyms/instructors for revenue generation. (note I do grade in Muay Thai to aid my development but I am aware that I am in the Minority).

    It appears that the Thai government disagrees and is even now working on creating a unified system of grading and insctructor certification.

    The intiative, spearheaded by Bramarjan Chinawut Sirisompan, AKA Master Woody, and overseen by the Kru Muay Thai Association of Thailand seeks to create a global Student/Gym/Instructor database. This will when it is complete and ratified be the only official register of Teachers- Kru, Kru Yai, Masters, and Grand Masters in the world. (Source: FIGHTERS magazine March 2008)

    On the face of it this sounds great, bring down the TKD, KB, Karate etc. guys who jumped on the "Kickboxer" bandwagon in the 80s and who teach nothing but rubbish.
    HOWEVER upon closer examination the requirements of registering as an instructor are that you must have "obtained the level of Khan 10 or above through a grading system and can provide proof of this".

    Since there is no unified system of Muay thai at present with every camp in thailand having it's own take on the art (as with most South east Asian arts) there can be, at present no unified grading system to be able to send proof of this "Khan 10" rank.

    A little investigation shows that this "Khan" based grading system is the one currently, and unsurprisingly adopted by Master Woody and his associated instructors (including Kru Shaun Boland, who worte the Article in FIGHTERS magazine).

    So to the point of this.

    Is this a necessary development in Muay thai to protect the history and purity of the art, and to protect it's students.

    OR

    Is this merely a cynical, syndicated revenue generation system by a few Muay Thai "Fatcats" who want to line their pockets whilst creating a massive chain of Muay thai McDojos around the world?

    Any thoughts?
    I'll contribute mine once a discussion has begun.

    link: http://www.krumuaythai.net/
     
  2. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    It something for all the people that don't fight but mearly train in Muay Thai.
    Maybe a bit of income for a struggling gym as well.
     
  3. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    As one of the people who have the 10th Khan given in 1995 by the very people who are running the Kru Muay Association and also as a person who has trained/studied(in more than 15 camps) and spent more than 2.5 years of my life in Thailand studying Muay Thai/Krabee Krabong and Nuat Phen Boran(Thai Masssage) perhaps i am qualified to give a reasonable opinion on this matter.

    First off i would like to say Ajarn Chinawut Sirisompan- aka Master Woody was my first Muay Thai instructor and it was through Master Woody that I was granted my teaching certificate in 1985 after studying Muay Thai with him for more than 3 years,and i still have the utmost of respect for him.

    Master woody alongside Master Toddy and Master Sken where the pioneers and founders of Muay Thai in the UK,without them there would of been no Muay Thai scene until many many years later in the Uk.

    That said now to my view of whether to have or not have gradings in Muay Thai,
    personally i think it is a good idea if not abused financially(ie rip a lot of money of your students),
    gradings are a source of revenue for clubs which is needed to keep the especially smaller clubs alive,
    gradings allow both the coach and the students to know what there knowledge and skill level is in the art of Muay Thai,
    gradings can allow a better organisation of teaching material and therefore a good structure in the club/gym.

    That said people who have been in Muay Thai for a while and been and trained in Thailand know that there is no grading structure over there in the camps,the only qualification is wheteher you can box or not! and they all can! however there are Kru and Ajarn(teachers) to help pass the knowledge of how to fight in the Muay Thai style,of course these teachers do not need certificates etc they are respected because of there ability to bring out the best in boxers and are known beacause of the amount and quality of the boxers that they have produced over the years.

    One point we must keep in mind is that Muay Thai inThailand is a proffesion,everybody gets paid,so the exchange of money in Muay Thai either in the UK or anywhere in the world shouldnt be thought of as "dirty",if people want to charge fairly for there knowledge,time etc then they are doing exactly what the Thai people are doing in the Muay Thai camps throughout Thailand.

    Now onto the Kru Muay Association registar,
    I really cant uderstand how this registar can work at all,mainly for the reasons stated above,how can anybody rate and grade the Kru in all the camps throughout Thailand? there knowledge/skill and time in the art are well known by those who count any way so why is it needed?.

    Is it needed in the western world to stop cowboy teachers? well i think that its way to late for that one! we missed it many years ago,im sure that the thinking from Master Woody and others in the KMA are honourable but my view is it is NOT needed,things are not perfect as they are but then what in life is? live and let live,those who want a register great,those who dont great,just train your Muay Thai and your teaching skills,learn from people who know what they are doing,take visits to Thailand immerse yourself in the culture in order to understand what your doing more.

    Thats it waffle over,i wont be joining the KMA at any forseable time in the future,but i wish them all the very best in there endeavour. :)
     
  4. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    No matter what the motivations behind this system are, I simply don't think it'll work. MuayThai is such a diverse art, even in Thailand. The modern sport of MuayThai is essentially a common ruleset by which the various styles of "Muay" can compete. Thinking of it from that perspective, I'm really unsure of how a common ranking system can really work. For instance, I've trained a little bit in some of the older bareknuckle techniques, such as Muay Chaiya and Muay Korat, and there are many other systems of Muay apart from those two.

    There are many camps throughout Thailand and abroad that can still trace their roots back to their bareknuckle Muay predecessors. Over the last 80 years, the sport has led to most camps adopting the techniques and strategies of other styles and camps to maintain an "edge", but some of these underlying differences are still there.

    That said, how do grade someone who has trained under a system of Muay Chaiya vs. someone who has trained under Muay Korat? While there are many techniques that would likely be the same under each style, there are others that are unique to each art.

    I have many other reservations about this proposed universal ranking system, but my above reason is what I think is my main sticking point
     
  5. sportmuaythai

    sportmuaythai Valued Member

    I'm aware that the Sports Authority of Thailand has introduced certification class for muaythai teachers so they can use the certificate to authenticate their application for job or foreign visa. However, this is done to prevent just any Thai national promoting himself as an experienced muaythai teacher, and to see that muaythai instructors at least have some basic knowledge of muaythai and teach in a systematic method. To qualify for certification class, the applicant must have fight record, or sponsored by registered muaythai camp in Thailand. I believe that in the future, foreign embassies would require such certification before granting visa to a Thai national muaythai instructor. I think that this will be of advantage to muaythai students in foreign land. Currently, there have been many Thai national imposers of muaythai instructor. When I say systematic method, I mean that if you leave one camp to train at another camp, you'll not need to start fresh all over, but continue to learn right on.
    BTW Bramarjan is a term that would bemuse Thais, while it may anger many Thais in the fighting circle. What a farce.
    I believe Khan is the term used for "level"? I have never heard that the Sports Authority is going to introduce Khan to grade students. This will create confusion of credidibility to muaythai syllabus.
     
  6. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Thanks for the info SportMuay,

    I think that is a good move by the Thai Government.

    Hope to see you in Thailand for some noodles soon :)
     
  7. ChorakedNoi

    ChorakedNoi Valued Member

    I think people are misunderstanding what Master Woody and the Sports Authority are trying to do here.
    I agree that to try and regulate who teaches Muay Thai is an object lesson in late bolting of stable doors, but that is not their goal. Nor is it to establish a fix curriculum of teaching Muay Thai.
    What they are trying to to is establish certain standards and recognize people who meet those standards. Those of us who have trained for a significant time, who have fought and who now teach, will readily agree there is a big difference between the sport of Muay Thai and the Art. There are many coaches out there who can teach you how to fight and compete in Muay Thai, but the main goal of the Kru Muay Association and AITMA is to promote and preserve the art.
    Muay Thai more than any other martial art has been bastardized as it was brought to the west. Japanese, Korean, Chinese arts all retain the core language terms for their techniques, but with Muay Thai the Thai names were dropped for the English versions. It was only really the old-style Krus and Arjarns which kept those practices, kept the Wai Kru and Ram Muay, taught the old Mae Mae, Luk Mai with the names, and THESE are the things that Master Woody and others seek to promote and encourage.
    They don't want to control what is taught or dictate which styles are shown. As Khun Kao noted, its all Muay Thai. I have trained in Chaiya, Lop Buri, Korat, Thaysao and even though the aspects of them differ, within them lie the same tricks. Hanuman Tawai Waen is in all those styles and in each one taught with the emphasis of each form. Hell even individual Arjarns teach it differently, but its all still the art. The same goes for all the elements that make Muay Thai. What is important that it is taught the Thai way, with respect and reverence for the culture and history. That, is what they are promoting, that is what they wish to see preserved. If you are teaching the techniques without these things is it still really the Art of Muay Thai, or is it something else?

    Not all great champions or fighters can teach, and some of the greatest teachers were not great champions. Not all students want to fight either, but one hopes that they all wish to learn and I can see the desire that most people have to have some feedback about their learning. In the same vein, just because you spent three months in Ko Samuai, trained half of the time, drank the rest, won three fights in a beer bar, should you be able to return back to the west and tell everyone you are a Kru?
    The Kru Muay Association register hopes to become something that students can use. I'm moving to DC area and I want to train, so I look up the register. Hey Brooks Miller is recognized by KMA, great know I know that I will get authentic training in the Art and not some Phuket cowboy.
    I hope this enlightens folks a bit. Is it a perfect solution? Probably not. Unfortunately there are always things that undermine honest efforts, like certain people offering 2-week courses for $5K to become a 'certified Kru', but thats a whole another thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2009
  8. vinodsreehari

    vinodsreehari New Member

    Well…in Thailand Muay Thai is mostly a professional sport! There aren’t any levels or black belts like in other martial arts! The belt is in the ring!

    Those who join a pro Muay Thai camp do so to make a living! If you join, you train 6 days per week, 6 to 8 hours per day! When your trainer feels you’re ready for your first fight…you fight! No questions asked! It’s your job!

    By this time most boxers are offered a “praciat” (sacred armband) by their teachers or by the local monks! Usually the color red! That’s all! This is a Thai custom since ancient times, to protect the boxers (and in the past, the warriors) from harm and to give them courage!

    No colored belts of any kind or diplomas either! In fact they couldn’t care less
    You win your fights, you make money you make a decent living! You lose often and soon you’ll be out of the camp!

    You’re recognized as a pro boxer by the professional boxing community- and when you retire (by the age of 26 or 27) you may even open your own boxing camp or change career! Ring experience and championship belts gives them credibility and recognition, but it does not necessarily mean they’ll be good instructors! Just like in any professional sport! Coaching is another learned skill! This is for the modern pro Thai boxers!


    However for the amateurs, specially those outside Thailand, the Thai government as well as the top amateur and pro International Muay Thai Federations in Thailand and abroad, have decided to prepare a curriculum of instruction with different levels (about 10 levels, called khan) so that Muay Thai can be taught properly around the world, with all its traditions and skills, from beginner to advanced to instructor level (khan 10).

    This also had the objective of controlling “Thai” kickboxing clubs and martial arts instructors who had no qualifications to be teaching Muay Thai, which has caused a lot of misunderstanding and delay in the development of this sport around the world!
     
  9. kurupzion

    kurupzion Valued Member

    sorry to open this back up, bu i think its bollox.

    Its fine grading your students so ther may be some kind of seniority in the individual classes, but then to expect other camps to recognise that persons "grade"?? c'mon.

    its like when you see some people train and you think WTF?
    you get your grades/belts in the ring. Not by so called "grand grand masters"
    I think the thais must be laughing at us in the west.

    Its like cr5ng5ng when you see these 8yr old black belt 2dans etc

    lets not make our sport another karate eh?
     
  10. kurupzion

    kurupzion Valued Member

    perfect example

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx4WeGm08Pk"]YouTube - Muay Thai Grading - Red/White and Red Singlets[/ame]

    this is a advanced grading in australia

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZhQYYz-l5o"]YouTube - Thai Pads Round 1[/ame]

    advanced in usa (cringe worthy)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0e5gdd5q-U"]YouTube - Dean @ Fight Rite Gym[/ame]

    black grading not sure where?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzu54LZdis"]YouTube - Me at grading 03/12/2006 pt 3[/ame]

    this is the funniest!!!
     
  11. kurupzion

    kurupzion Valued Member

    and probably the worst example. the instructor needs a beating,

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Qy67zQF9g&feature=channel"]YouTube - muay thai student testing[/ame]
     
  12. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    WTF!!.

    WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO THIS BEAUTIFULL ART AND SPORT!.:eek:

    sorry for shouting but its how I feel!.

    Kurupzion it makes you realise how lucky you are having a teacher such as yours.:)
     
  13. georgestando

    georgestando Valued Member

    Its horrendous and sad.

    But no muay thai camp in thailand will respect any of that.

    The stuff about old muay thai is also a joke, everyone says they know muay chaiya, muay korat, muay tai sao, but they had better have teachers for each style not the crushed down watered down kids stuff.

    Master Woody doesnt get any respect in the circles of reality here in thailand, its manufactured for gulliable foreigners who actually believe they are learning stuff.

    You can go to college and get a phys ed degree in muay thai, why bother with this bastardization(for want of something better), at least you are identifying where you are coming from and what you did.

    The khan stuff is laughable and sad.

    If it takes off, there will always be two worlds as I see those who walk it and do it, and those who take the clown route.

    Which would you be?
     
  14. kurupzion

    kurupzion Valued Member

    taLKING OF WHICH, this is the only footage of him with a beginner in the gym. the beginner had trained for just a year but did some stuff elsewhere. he is doing padwork to test his fitness, and responses and his padwork is really really tiring. its the forth round of 5 rounds in total of padwork before the rest of the otherstuff (bag work, running/ jumping tyre work etc etc )

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KuI2AnbQI"]YouTube - UK MUAY THAI - SHOR CHANA[/ame]
     
  15. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Thanks Bro.:)
     
  16. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Its awful isnt it George.

    Have you seen the Donny B stuff on You Tube? thoughts?.:)
     
  17. kurupzion

    kurupzion Valued Member

    i dont think grades within clubs are bad, but to expect a international/national recognised grading system is ridiculous.
    like i said we recieve grades in our club to mark seniority based on fights had and or on fitness/conditioning/experience level.this im sure is similar of most clubs. but to expect someone from our club to go else where to train and be recognised due to his so called "black arm band/prajat/belt etc" is not possible.

    people get recognised for their style/technique not for their grade.
     
  18. kurupzion

    kurupzion Valued Member

    i think as long as people understand its mainly for demonstration purposes.
    but in this link i totally disagree with his kicking of old style and ring style.

    the asian guy isnt a good kicker anyway but what he is describing of the different kicks are both used in sport muay thai and have different uses.
     
  19. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Kurupzion,

    I think the Donny B clips are utter dross,he wouldnt know any of the older Muay Thai methods if they jumped up and bit him on the posterior:)
     
  20. georgestando

    georgestando Valued Member

    Wow, that was atrocious. Its getting worse and worse.

    Matter of fact, all the stuff of master woody, decesarsis and the like are just demonstration stuff devoid of any of the real teachings. Its so sad its gotten apalling. I mean you cant pass that stuff off as real and even in demo form, its sad.

    Wow......
     

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